I'm trying to get an old Conn flute running again but it didn't come with a cleaning rod. I don't know if all tuning marks are the same distance from the tip of the rod but I'm wondering if some people could measure theirs carefully in millimeters and let me know what they get. Include the brand of flute if you wish.
Thanks
Need tuning mark measurement
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
Thanks I will use that. This is a sterling silver closed hole flute from the 1920s. It needs all new pads and has a couple slightly bent posts. I'm wondering if it would be a good flute to learn servicing on or whether it has too much inherent value to use for this purpose by an amateur. Any opinions?
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fluteguy18
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fluttiegurl
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pied_piper
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I don't want to discourage you, but bent posts can be more of a problem than you might think.moondaddy wrote:...and has a couple slightly bent posts. ...
On some older flutes, posts are soft-soldered directly to the tube whereas today posts are usually silver soldered to a rib which in turn is soldered to the tube body. In either case, a bent post can also bend the tube under the post. If the bent post is rib-mounted, sometimes the rib can be bent and/or break the solder connection and bend the tube under the rib.
If your flute exhibits any of these, it's not something that can be easily repaired without a flute body mandrel or other dent removal equipment, possibly soldering equipment, and experience dealing with this type of damage. It's not uncommon to break the solder joint loose under the post or rib when trying to straighten it.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--
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pied_piper
- Posts: 1962
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- Location: Virginia
Generally, posts can be straightened, but there are the risks that I mentioned. Even professional flute repair technicians occasionally have a post or rib come unsoldered. They can minimize the risk, but there's no guarantee. However, a pro can always resolder a loose post/rib.
First a few questions to help me guide you to your decision of whether to attempt this yourself or not.
Are the bent posts on the main section or the foot joint?
Which keys are nearest to the bent posts?
Are the posts mounted on ribs or directly on the tube?
Look through the tube from the end closest to the bent post. Can you see if the tube protrudes any under the post or does it look look perfectly straight inside?
Look carefully at the bottom of the post/rib - use a magnifying glass. Is there any gap or crack between the bottom of the post/rib and the tube or does it look solid like a single piece of metal?
What flute repair tools do you have (or have access to)?
What experience do you have with minor flute repairs? i.e. pads, felts, corks, adjustments?
If none, are you "mechanically inclined" and comfortable working with tools?
Have you read any books on the mechanics and repair of the flute? (a couple of good ones are: "The Complete Guide to the Flute and Piccolo" by J. James Phelan or "Servicing the Flute" by J.L. "Jeff Smith)
Do you really want to use this flute to learn flute repair? i.e. Are you willing to accept that you might further damage it so that repairing it would not be economically feasible to make it playable again?
If the post came off while trying to straighten it, do you have access to a flute repair technician that could reattach it for you?
Would you consider having a pro straighten the posts and you do the rest of the work? (Assuming you can find one that would be willing to do that)
Do you know a local flute technician that would be willing to tutor you in flute repair?
First a few questions to help me guide you to your decision of whether to attempt this yourself or not.
Are the bent posts on the main section or the foot joint?
Which keys are nearest to the bent posts?
Are the posts mounted on ribs or directly on the tube?
Look through the tube from the end closest to the bent post. Can you see if the tube protrudes any under the post or does it look look perfectly straight inside?
Look carefully at the bottom of the post/rib - use a magnifying glass. Is there any gap or crack between the bottom of the post/rib and the tube or does it look solid like a single piece of metal?
What flute repair tools do you have (or have access to)?
What experience do you have with minor flute repairs? i.e. pads, felts, corks, adjustments?
If none, are you "mechanically inclined" and comfortable working with tools?
Have you read any books on the mechanics and repair of the flute? (a couple of good ones are: "The Complete Guide to the Flute and Piccolo" by J. James Phelan or "Servicing the Flute" by J.L. "Jeff Smith)
Do you really want to use this flute to learn flute repair? i.e. Are you willing to accept that you might further damage it so that repairing it would not be economically feasible to make it playable again?
If the post came off while trying to straighten it, do you have access to a flute repair technician that could reattach it for you?
Would you consider having a pro straighten the posts and you do the rest of the work? (Assuming you can find one that would be willing to do that)
Do you know a local flute technician that would be willing to tutor you in flute repair?
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--
Thanks for taking the time to help. In answer to your questions:
On this flute the body and foot are one piece so there is no separate foot joint. The worst bent post is at the bottom of the lower stack nearest the D key and it is bent directly down and away from the rod. The other post is the one at the bottom of the trill keys and is bent in the same direction as the other post.
I'm not sure what you mean by ribs as I'm not familiar with that term on flutes and don't see anything like that, only that the posts are mounted on the tube. I don't see any protrusions underneath the posts from the inside and there are no cracks or gaps between the bottoms of the posts and the tube. I don't have any specific flute tools although I have a fair selection of small tools from working on electronics and other things. I am mainly a clarinet player and have replaced pads and corks on them. I also play “at” violin, brasses, keyboards and guitar and have done minor repairs and maintenance on all of them. Among my tools I have a pad slick, a leak light, small screw drivers, needle nose pliers in 2 sizes and a needle nose vice grip, soldering irons, a micrometer, a magnifier on a headpiece and wire nippers. Several years back I adjusted all the pads on a flute and although I didn't improve it (probably should have used new pads), I didn't do any harm to it either. I am very mechanically inclined and logic-minded although my eyesight isn't what it used to be and I have a very bad back so I have to be exceedingly careful of strain, bending, twisting, etc. I have often considered getting more deeply into instrument repair and am particularly interested in flutes. I don't own any books although I have presently checked out Burton Stanley's Instrument Repair for the Music Teacher from my library and I have found several articles on the internet about replacing pads and other flute adjustments. I'm not sure I want to risk damaging this flute any further but from my general mechanical experience (have worked on cars a lot, some construction, plumbing, electrical, jack-of-all-trades, etc) have a feeling (although not confident) that carefully bending these posts will be OK. I don't know any techs and live in a somewhat isolated area so any repairs would have to be sent away for. How much would a tech usually charge to straighten posts?
Thanks again.
On this flute the body and foot are one piece so there is no separate foot joint. The worst bent post is at the bottom of the lower stack nearest the D key and it is bent directly down and away from the rod. The other post is the one at the bottom of the trill keys and is bent in the same direction as the other post.
I'm not sure what you mean by ribs as I'm not familiar with that term on flutes and don't see anything like that, only that the posts are mounted on the tube. I don't see any protrusions underneath the posts from the inside and there are no cracks or gaps between the bottoms of the posts and the tube. I don't have any specific flute tools although I have a fair selection of small tools from working on electronics and other things. I am mainly a clarinet player and have replaced pads and corks on them. I also play “at” violin, brasses, keyboards and guitar and have done minor repairs and maintenance on all of them. Among my tools I have a pad slick, a leak light, small screw drivers, needle nose pliers in 2 sizes and a needle nose vice grip, soldering irons, a micrometer, a magnifier on a headpiece and wire nippers. Several years back I adjusted all the pads on a flute and although I didn't improve it (probably should have used new pads), I didn't do any harm to it either. I am very mechanically inclined and logic-minded although my eyesight isn't what it used to be and I have a very bad back so I have to be exceedingly careful of strain, bending, twisting, etc. I have often considered getting more deeply into instrument repair and am particularly interested in flutes. I don't own any books although I have presently checked out Burton Stanley's Instrument Repair for the Music Teacher from my library and I have found several articles on the internet about replacing pads and other flute adjustments. I'm not sure I want to risk damaging this flute any further but from my general mechanical experience (have worked on cars a lot, some construction, plumbing, electrical, jack-of-all-trades, etc) have a feeling (although not confident) that carefully bending these posts will be OK. I don't know any techs and live in a somewhat isolated area so any repairs would have to be sent away for. How much would a tech usually charge to straighten posts?
Thanks again.
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
I would highly recommend getting the following if possible:
1: Jon Landell's flute repair kit. It is mostly things that you have already, but with the exception that several of them have been custom made/redesigned to work on flutes. I bought his tool set a while ago, and mine came with various screw drivers [different sizes and lengths to get into the nooks and crannies], smooth, thin pliers, razor blades, pad glue, key oil, a padded fabric to cover your work station, a small hammer, a spring hook, and several other things. It also comes with a pin driver [a small yet expensive piece of equipment that will save you a lot of time and stress when unpinning the mechanism]. Included in the kit is his book on flute repair.
There is also a book about flute and piccolo repair: Complete Guide to the Flute and Piccolo by J. James Phelan with contributions by Lillian Burkart
I recommend getting that as well. It is an interesting read.
I also recommend going out and purchasing quality flute pads, and various thicknesses of paper. And if you REALLY want to do a thorough overhaul, I would go on and buy denatured alcohol [to clean the old oil out of the hinge tubes], and a quality silver polishing paste to buff out scratches [if the flute is completely solid silver!!!!!].
1: Jon Landell's flute repair kit. It is mostly things that you have already, but with the exception that several of them have been custom made/redesigned to work on flutes. I bought his tool set a while ago, and mine came with various screw drivers [different sizes and lengths to get into the nooks and crannies], smooth, thin pliers, razor blades, pad glue, key oil, a padded fabric to cover your work station, a small hammer, a spring hook, and several other things. It also comes with a pin driver [a small yet expensive piece of equipment that will save you a lot of time and stress when unpinning the mechanism]. Included in the kit is his book on flute repair.
There is also a book about flute and piccolo repair: Complete Guide to the Flute and Piccolo by J. James Phelan with contributions by Lillian Burkart
I recommend getting that as well. It is an interesting read.
I also recommend going out and purchasing quality flute pads, and various thicknesses of paper. And if you REALLY want to do a thorough overhaul, I would go on and buy denatured alcohol [to clean the old oil out of the hinge tubes], and a quality silver polishing paste to buff out scratches [if the flute is completely solid silver!!!!!].
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pied_piper
- Posts: 1962
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:31 pm
- Location: Virginia
Moondaddy,
Based on your comments, I think you can probably attempt to straighten the posts. This can be done by tapping it to nudge it in the correct direction. I'll describe how to do this as safely as possible. Ideally, you should have a flute body mandrel to insert while doing this, but since you are looking to do-it-yourself and you probably don't have a mandrel (about $60-80), I'll suggest an alternative. The purpose for the mandrel in this operation is two-fold: 1 - When the mandrel is is mounted in a bench vise, it helps hold the flute while working on it. 2 - It helps to keep the bore from distorting or bending when you attempt to straighten the posts.
Get a 3/4" hardwood dowel rod. Most flute bores are around .750", so the 3/4" dowel should be real close. If it's too tight to go in without forcing it, just sand it all around (or use a lathe if you have access to one) until it fits into the bore snugly (there should not be a gap between the dowel and the wall of the flute bore) but freely (you don't want it to get stuck in there). If it's loose, wrap a sheet or two of paper around the dowel. When you're satisfied with the fit and it's nice and smooth, mount it in the vise and slide the flute on it.
You'll also need a small 1/4" to 3/8" dowel rod and about 4-6 inches long.
A rawhide or wood mallet or a small hammer will also be needed.
Remove the RH keys and put the pivot screw back in the post for support to protect the screw hole in the post. Hold the 1/4" dowel rod between your thumb and index finger and place one end of the dowel against the right side of the post. Simultaneously use the other fingers and palm of that hand to hold the flute in place on your mandrel to keep it from moving.
Now, lightly tap the other end of the dowel rod with the mallet. This will require some trial-and-error (with an emphasis on trial to AVOID error) to find out how much force will be required to straighten the post. After each tap, reinstall the RH keys to check the fit. You'll likely have to do this many times to find just the right amount of force to get the post back to 90°. Too little, and you can do it again. Too much and you may overshoot or do more damage.
Anyway, I hope that's clear, but if not, feel free to ask more questions.
Based on your comments, I think you can probably attempt to straighten the posts. This can be done by tapping it to nudge it in the correct direction. I'll describe how to do this as safely as possible. Ideally, you should have a flute body mandrel to insert while doing this, but since you are looking to do-it-yourself and you probably don't have a mandrel (about $60-80), I'll suggest an alternative. The purpose for the mandrel in this operation is two-fold: 1 - When the mandrel is is mounted in a bench vise, it helps hold the flute while working on it. 2 - It helps to keep the bore from distorting or bending when you attempt to straighten the posts.
Get a 3/4" hardwood dowel rod. Most flute bores are around .750", so the 3/4" dowel should be real close. If it's too tight to go in without forcing it, just sand it all around (or use a lathe if you have access to one) until it fits into the bore snugly (there should not be a gap between the dowel and the wall of the flute bore) but freely (you don't want it to get stuck in there). If it's loose, wrap a sheet or two of paper around the dowel. When you're satisfied with the fit and it's nice and smooth, mount it in the vise and slide the flute on it.
You'll also need a small 1/4" to 3/8" dowel rod and about 4-6 inches long.
A rawhide or wood mallet or a small hammer will also be needed.
Remove the RH keys and put the pivot screw back in the post for support to protect the screw hole in the post. Hold the 1/4" dowel rod between your thumb and index finger and place one end of the dowel against the right side of the post. Simultaneously use the other fingers and palm of that hand to hold the flute in place on your mandrel to keep it from moving.
Now, lightly tap the other end of the dowel rod with the mallet. This will require some trial-and-error (with an emphasis on trial to AVOID error) to find out how much force will be required to straighten the post. After each tap, reinstall the RH keys to check the fit. You'll likely have to do this many times to find just the right amount of force to get the post back to 90°. Too little, and you can do it again. Too much and you may overshoot or do more damage.
Anyway, I hope that's clear, but if not, feel free to ask more questions.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
Another trick, is if you need to sand the dowel rod, and you don't have a lathe is this:
Take an electric screwdriver, and drill a long screw into the end of the dowel rod. [Not the rounded side, but the flat END]. Only screw it in about half an inch.
Then, remove the drill bit from the electric screw driver, and insert the screw [with dowel still attatched], into the screw driver, and tighten it. Then when you turn on the electric screw driver, you have a home made lathe. Then just hold sand paper in your hand , and spin the dowel.
[Note: A carpenter's nail also works].
[Another Note: You might want to clip the head off of the nail/screw].
Cheap and easy!
Take an electric screwdriver, and drill a long screw into the end of the dowel rod. [Not the rounded side, but the flat END]. Only screw it in about half an inch.
Then, remove the drill bit from the electric screw driver, and insert the screw [with dowel still attatched], into the screw driver, and tighten it. Then when you turn on the electric screw driver, you have a home made lathe. Then just hold sand paper in your hand , and spin the dowel.
[Note: A carpenter's nail also works].
[Another Note: You might want to clip the head off of the nail/screw].
Cheap and easy!
Fluteguy I just ordered the Phelan book from my library so will get that in a week or so. Planning to measure and get pads from Musicmedic.com. Where is a good source for “different thicknesses of paper” and how do you cut your own shims and in what shapes? I notice the ones in my flute have an off center hole. Is this common? I checked out the Landell website. $250 a bit much for now for the kit. Interesting he has a school. Regarding denatured alcohol I have a physical problem with many chemicals and I believe DA is one. For similar tasks in the past I have used 190 proof grain alcohol AKA Everclear which I do not have a problem being around. I cleaned the flute once already with a silver polish I got at the grocery. Took all the keys off and pads out first and cleaned the residue carefully out of screw holes and other potential trouble areas after. It did a pretty decent job of shining it up though I think it could be better. Good enough for now. I suppose there are better choices than this type of cleaner. Thanks for the idea about the makeshift lathe. Might come in very handy.
Piper great description of the post adjustment procedure. Very clear. I have a dowel about the right size for an mandrel and with a piece of heavy paper wrapped around is a nice snug but smooth fit. It isn't long enough to go all the way through the flute and out the other end so is it OK to just hold the flute in my lap while doing the tapping? Also my other short piece of dowel is 7/16 diameter so I hope that isn't too big. I was checking spaces between various rods and posts with a feeler gauge. Some I can't even get the smallest blade (.0015 “) in there though the joint still moves freely and in another a .003 will go and the pads seem to still seat consistently and stably. So how close is close enough?
Thanks guys. This is a big help.
Piper great description of the post adjustment procedure. Very clear. I have a dowel about the right size for an mandrel and with a piece of heavy paper wrapped around is a nice snug but smooth fit. It isn't long enough to go all the way through the flute and out the other end so is it OK to just hold the flute in my lap while doing the tapping? Also my other short piece of dowel is 7/16 diameter so I hope that isn't too big. I was checking spaces between various rods and posts with a feeler gauge. Some I can't even get the smallest blade (.0015 “) in there though the joint still moves freely and in another a .003 will go and the pads seem to still seat consistently and stably. So how close is close enough?
Thanks guys. This is a big help.
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
For shims, basically any kind of paper as long as it is in the thickness you need, is fine. I use varying thicknesses [ like tissue paper, rice paper, printer paper, newspaper etc. etc.]. The type doesn't matter so much as the thickness does. As for cutting it, you just need to cut it into the shape that you need it. Sometimes you will need a crescent shape [for pads], sometimes you will need a rectangular shape [to do fine adjustments on the kickers] etc. etc.
Use your imagination. Once you get started, it isn't that complicated. It's just tedious.
Use your imagination. Once you get started, it isn't that complicated. It's just tedious.
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pied_piper
- Posts: 1962
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:31 pm
- Location: Virginia
I second Fluteguy's suggestion on the paper. You can buy precut paper circles in various diameters that are pre-punched with holes in the center. For pros, that can save a lot of time when working a lot of flutes. For a one-off repair, just cut what you need. If you need thicker shims, you can use a manila envelope or a manila file folder. I believe you said you have a micrometer? If so, just measure the thickness of whatever you have available and mark the measurement on it so that you can sort it according to thickness. Typical thicknesses vary from .001 to .012.
There are several other good sources for flute parts and tools:
http://jlsmithco.com/ (Specializing in flute tools - they have several complete kits, too)
http://www.valentinopads.com/ (Pad division of J.L. Smith)
You can download their catalog and price list.
http://www.ferreestools.com/ is also a good source for tools and parts, but they have a pretty lame web site. You have to order their catalog.
You can get your pads from most any source, but the best standard skin/bladder pads are thin (.080-.085) and made with pressed felt - check the description. Using thin pads usually means using more shims. Pressed felt is also a bit firmer. It takes a bit more work to get them seated properly, but it's what most pros generally use for pro repad jobs. These will generally last longer. Thicker (.110 or so) woven felt pads will work too, but those are more typically used on student flutes. The softer felt is easier to seat (which means quicker turnaround in the shop) and will take a deeper impression. These would be good to use if the tone holes do not have a perfect facing for the pads to sit on. You'll need to decide which type will work best for your flute.
Regarding the 7/16' dowel, that's fine as long as it will line up properly with the posts you need to straighten. If it fits, use it.
For the spaces between the rods and posts, the main thing is that there is no "slop" (end play) in the action. If the key stack is able to move side-to-side between the posts, you will have a hard time getting the pads to seat properly. On good flutes, the gap between the rod and post (and between adjacent keys) is nearly zero and invisible to the naked eye. The tolerances are that close. I would not be too concerned about the gap and just concentrate on being sure that the key rods are not able to move side-to-side. However, a gap frequently means there is some end play. If the posts don't appear to be bent, I would leave them alone. On older instruments, the gaps are frequently caused by wear on the ends of the key rods which allows the "slop" or end play I referred to. There are several ways to deal with that and the Phelan book has good descriptions of how to correct it. Another option that is NOT mentioned in the Phelan book is to use plastic end play washers to fill the gap. They are available from JL Smith. This is not what flute techs do for professional flutes - it's considered a quick and dirty fix, but it does work for lesser flutes or in an emergency.
There are several other good sources for flute parts and tools:
http://jlsmithco.com/ (Specializing in flute tools - they have several complete kits, too)
http://www.valentinopads.com/ (Pad division of J.L. Smith)
You can download their catalog and price list.
http://www.ferreestools.com/ is also a good source for tools and parts, but they have a pretty lame web site. You have to order their catalog.
You can get your pads from most any source, but the best standard skin/bladder pads are thin (.080-.085) and made with pressed felt - check the description. Using thin pads usually means using more shims. Pressed felt is also a bit firmer. It takes a bit more work to get them seated properly, but it's what most pros generally use for pro repad jobs. These will generally last longer. Thicker (.110 or so) woven felt pads will work too, but those are more typically used on student flutes. The softer felt is easier to seat (which means quicker turnaround in the shop) and will take a deeper impression. These would be good to use if the tone holes do not have a perfect facing for the pads to sit on. You'll need to decide which type will work best for your flute.
Regarding the 7/16' dowel, that's fine as long as it will line up properly with the posts you need to straighten. If it fits, use it.
For the spaces between the rods and posts, the main thing is that there is no "slop" (end play) in the action. If the key stack is able to move side-to-side between the posts, you will have a hard time getting the pads to seat properly. On good flutes, the gap between the rod and post (and between adjacent keys) is nearly zero and invisible to the naked eye. The tolerances are that close. I would not be too concerned about the gap and just concentrate on being sure that the key rods are not able to move side-to-side. However, a gap frequently means there is some end play. If the posts don't appear to be bent, I would leave them alone. On older instruments, the gaps are frequently caused by wear on the ends of the key rods which allows the "slop" or end play I referred to. There are several ways to deal with that and the Phelan book has good descriptions of how to correct it. Another option that is NOT mentioned in the Phelan book is to use plastic end play washers to fill the gap. They are available from JL Smith. This is not what flute techs do for professional flutes - it's considered a quick and dirty fix, but it does work for lesser flutes or in an emergency.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--