Professional Headjoint and Flute Poll

[ick27]

I can see that this is a sensitive topic! In fact, lower frequencies travel better than high frequencies. This why if someone is playing loud rap music nearby, you'll hear the rumbling bass but not the higher sounds. However, the ear is more sensitive to higher sounds (to a point), so higher pitches sound louder than lower pitches of equal decibel ratings.

This discussion is getting more into the realm of physics, so perhaps it's time we finished it up (this is a flute board after all.) Not that physics isn't exciting of course! I found this website which has a pretty nice introduction to the physics of sound and music: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/s ... ndtoc.html

For information about projection, read the section of diffraction of sounds waves (in lesson 3.) They conclude, "low-pitched (high wavelength) sounds always carry further than high pitched (low wavelength) sounds." Unfortunately, knowing this doesn't make you a great player, you still have to practice!

[fluteguy18]

I must say that I agree with flutepicc. When someone is blasting rap, you hear the lowest tones before the higher tones at a distance. Fog horns are very low pitched, and their sound carries for miles. You dont hear a fog horn sounding like a piccolo do you?

I am also a harpist. In a recording session I did with my university this evening, I noticed on the stage, that my lowest strings projected much better than my higher strings. So, when we did a release, and the conductor told me to let the strings ring, when I played a low chord, the pause was much longer than when it was a higher chord.

[alexbharris]

I did not phrase that sentence about flutes and fog horns well. Obviously they are different, but in this situation, the concept is the same....You can presume all you want...Your concepts seem rather muddled. I suggest you do some additional research into this, as none of your points seems to have been very valid beyond pointing out an omission in my writing.

Not sure why you feel compelled to be antagonistic. Perhaps you are insecure about your ability (or lack thereof).

You might want to try to get the administrator to delete your various posts about acoustics over water being identical to that as through a homogenous medium (i.e. air). I only say this only because you are putting a lot of effort into this board, presumably to gain some kind of credibility, and such a statement is very silly.

Thanks also for your advice about Flute Talk, or Flute World as I like to call it. The last time they interviewed me I was playing on the flute that sold for $187,000 at Christies, and the woman who was writing the article for the NFA asked, "What makes that flute project so well?". I told her "it's the player, not the flute." Not an answer that someone like yourself wants to hear, but things are what they are.

Good luck to you and have a nice day.

[flutepicc06]

Not sure why you feel compelled to be antagonistic. Perhaps you are insecure about your ability (or lack thereof).

You might want to try to get the administrator to delete your various posts about acoustics over water being identical to that as through a homogenous medium (i.e. air). I only say this only because you are putting a lot of effort into this board, presumably to gain some kind of credibility, and such a statement is very silly.

Thanks also for your advice about Flute Talk, or Flute World as I like to call it. The last time they interviewed me I was playing on the flute that sold for $187,000 at Christies, and the woman who was writing the article for the NFA asked, "What makes that flute project so well?". I told her "it's the player, not the flute." Not an answer that someone like yourself wants to hear, but things are what they are.

Good luck to you and have a nice day.

If anyone has been antagonistic here, it's been you ("If you think that lower partials cause your sound to project then you probably have no sound."). Questioning the ability of someone on the other side of a debate doesn't exactly help your argument that I'm antagonistic either. If I had security issues, would I really put myself out there on the internet to potentially be laughed at or told off? Or even involve myself in a debate such as this? I think not. Good try at analyzing me, though.

I have absolutely no intention of getting the admin to delete my posts in this thread, as they contain the only valid information on projection aside from ick27's contribution (which incidentally supported my ideas). I put effort into this board because I have knowledge on the subject of flutes, and like to know that I am helping others solve their various flute problems. What kind of credibility could I possibly be gaining from posting anonymously on an internet flute board?

I don't see why I should dislike that answer to the woman interviewing you (if in fact there was a woman), as I never asserted that the flute had anything to do with projection. As it's the lower harmonics that matter in projection, the player quite obviously is responsible for selecting these harmonics...The flute does not do that for the player. An interesting side note about that article that was being written "for the NFA" that was to be placed in Flute Talk....Flute Talk is not actually the NFA's publication....That's the Flutist Quarterly. It's interesting that you wouldn't know that after supposedly being interviewed (for what I assume was not the first time, by your use of the phrase "The last time they interviewed me"). Something is not quite right with that story.

I'm sorry you're so stubbornly set in your ways. Perhaps somewhere down the line someone will be able to convince you to think through your ideas on the flute as I don't seem to have been able to do so.

[fluteguy18]

Sorry alexbharris.... afraid you have been out debated. Flutepicc has made very valid statements, and you have been the first to get heated in this debate.

And as for building credentials..... look who the top poster on this board is.... I find that you are the one who is trying to build credentials on here. Such an effort into being antagonistic is only showing closed mindedness. I used to be closed minded about things on this board, but I realised that even though I know a lot about the flute, I still have a lot to learn. So, perhaps you should do more research, or just agree to disagree, or perhaps consider that you might be wrong.

[flutepicc06]

Thank you very much for your support, Fluteguy. It's much appreciated.

[alexbharris]

...about that article that was being written "for the NFA" that was to be placed in Flute Talk....Flute Talk is not actually the NFA's publication....That's the Flutist Quarterly. It's interesting that you wouldn't know that after supposedly being interviewed (for what I assume was not the first time, by your use of the phrase "The last time they interviewed me"). Something is not quite right with that story.

I'm sorry you're so stubbornly set in your ways. Perhaps somewhere down the line someone will be able to convince you to think through your ideas on the flute as I don't seem to have been able to do so.

Didn’t know it is illegal for someone from the NFA to do an interview for Flute Talk. What a cornucopia of important and accurate information, and all from the same person. Gee, thanks!

All I can do is to repeat what my teacher told me many times himself. Upper partials are what are responsible for projection. Again, this is why you'll always hear a violin over a viola, and a piccolo over a flute. Be my guest in trying to convince yourself otherwise, I won’t stop you (or your various aliases).

Have a good day!

P.S. Sound does not project the same way over water as through air.

[flutepicc06]

Didn’t know it is illegal for someone from the NFA to do an interview for Flute Talk. What a cornucopia of important and accurate information, and all from the same person. Gee, thanks!

All I can do is to repeat what my teacher told me many times himself. Upper partials are what are responsible for projection. Again, this is why you'll always hear a violin over a viola, and a piccolo over a flute. Be my guest in trying to convince yourself otherwise, I won’t stop you (or your various aliases).

Have a good day!

P.S. Sound does not project the same way over water as through air.

I somehow doubt that the NFA would send someone to do an interview for a publication when they have their own to publish it.

I find it laughable that you're now accusing me of having aliases. Try taking a look at the writing styles and vocabulary of myself and whoever you think my aliases may be, and I think you'll notice a significant difference. I can guarantee that this is my one and only account on this board, though I know you'll try to refute that.

Repeating what your teacher told you without thinking for yourself is exactly what I was getting at...That's why what you believe to be the cause for projection is incorrect, and why so many other myths exist around the flute. For years, people were convinced that a pro flute had to be inline G, with a B foot...Obviously that's not correct, and your assumptions about projection fall into the same vein. Your teacher may be a great player, but that doesn't mean you should accept everything they say without thinking it through. As I've already discussed, you hear a high pitched instrument first because of the higher energy sound wave produced by a violin in comparison to a viola (this is response, and revolves around how fast the waves travel), but you will not hear it best at a difference (this is projection, and revolves around how far a wave will travel). Be MY guest in trying to convince yourself otherwise, but the facts support me.

As for sound projecting differently over water, this principle applies primarily to smooth bodies of water, where the roughness of water does not interfere with sound waves, but rather bow the sound, protecting it from interference. In a foghorn situation, involving the ocean (and thus waves), and with the sound traveling through the air, rather than the water, the sound waves will behave essentially the same as they would on land, as they bounce off the rough surface and recieve interference. The foghorn is quite comparable to the flute in this situation. But this is an entirely different discussion from what projection is about. Quite clearly you have not bothered to do the research I suggested, nor even think through what I've been saying.

[alexbharris]

I somehow doubt that the NFA would send someone to do an interview for a publication when they have their own to publish it.

I find it laughable that you're now accusing me of having aliases….

Repeating what your teacher told you without thinking for yourself is exactly what I was getting at...

As for sound projecting differently over water…

It’s just a statement of fact, the interview was in 1987. Check Flute Talk or the NFA publication (you appear to have a lot of time on your hands, and it would be a good exercise in humility). The interviews related to the world’s fair William Kincaid platinum flute that sold for $187,000 at Christies. Several of us who were given access to this instrument were asked about it.

With regard to aliases, I stand by what I said.

When I listen to a violin and a viola playing together I hear the violin further away. Same with a flute and piccolo. I can’t imagine too many people saying that a piccolo projects less well than a flute. In fact, you are the only person I have ever heard say such a thing.

Not sure what research you are talking about, sound projects differently over a body of water than through air. It’s just a statement of fact, very weird that you would want to debate this. You wouldn’t debate that sound projects differently in different halls, would you?

I’m going to let this lie for others, since it’s really getting annoying. However, in the event that some young flutist is reading this, I’ll repeat it one last time:

A flute does not project as well as a piccolo. This is because the upper partials in the sound carry the sound. If you want to get your sound to carry, you’ll need to play with more upper partials. Speak to the great teachers (Moyse, Kincaid, Krell, Nyfinger), or those that studied with them for years and they will tell you the same thing. [The above are all gone, but their students are still around].

Acoustics are different in different physical environments. Acoustics in different halls are different. The acoustics across a body of water are vastly different from the acoustics of environments where flutists are likely to play.

[remnantpark]

I'm sorry Alexbharris,
But according to Flutepicc's statement, he sounds right.
And really, he's not trying to attack you; there's a difference between the internet conversations and personal/physical conversations. He's only trying to explain his point of view. Internet conversations can get sticky and when others post their opinions/ideas/etc and the like/, others may disagree, too; it's inevitable. I'm not much of a flute expert like Flutpicc or Fluteguy, but using physics, in my opinion, I think lower partials will project. Projection is a little different than what most people think. (Not being offensive or any other way)
Ex:
When a woman does not use her diaphragm and simply takes a breath with her shoulders (or whatever. It's not /exactly/ like projection.
However, if a man uses a lot of air in his diaphragm and speaks, it projects.
I don't know how to explain this unless I am talking physically etc.
(The gender has nothing to do with this)

Sorry, I don't mean to lecture or butt in in any way.

[flutepicc06]

With regard to aliases, I stand by what I said.

When I listen to a violin and a viola playing together I hear the violin further away. Same with a flute and piccolo. I can’t imagine too many people saying that a piccolo projects less well than a flute. In fact, you are the only person I have ever heard say such a thing.

Not sure what research you are talking about, sound projects differently over a body of water than through air. It’s just a statement of fact, very weird that you would want to debate this. You wouldn’t debate that sound projects differently in different halls, would you?

I’m going to let this lie for others, since it’s really getting annoying. However, in the event that some young flutist is reading this, I’ll repeat it one last time:

A flute does not project as well as a piccolo. This is because the upper partials in the sound carry the sound. If you want to get your sound to carry, you’ll need to play with more upper partials. Speak to the great teachers (Moyse, Kincaid, Krell, Nyfinger), or those that studied with them for years and they will tell you the same thing. [The above are all gone, but their students are still around].

Acoustics are different in different physical environments. Acoustics in different halls are different. The acoustics across a body of water are vastly different from the acoustics of environments where flutists are likely to play.

Stand by whatever you want...It doesn't really matter in the long run. If you seriously find it so difficult to believe that others might disagree with you, go right on believing that we're all the same person.

The reason you hear a violin or a piccolo better is that the human ear is more attuned to the pitches they produce. We are not used to listening for extremely low pitches, like those produced by a bass or a foghorn, but are naturally more accustomed to high pitched instruments. Not to mention that while you may not be able to hear the two instruments anymore, as the sounds gradually dissipate, the sound of the lower pitched instrument is still there after the higher pitch has disappeared, and can be picked up by computers, even if outside the ability of the human ear. It's also a matter of pure volume. The higher pitched the instrument, the more difficult it is to control dynamically. At the same decibel levels, a flute's sound would indeed carry further than a piccolo, though still no where near as far as a tuba's sound would carry. I've already discussed the whole "sound over water thing" and in the context that Wye was using, comparing a foghorn and a flute is quite valid, though you refuse to see that. I am not debating that sound can potentially travel differently over water, but under which circumstances it travels over the water matter quite a bit. The "great teachers" were indeed great performers, but were also of an era when less was understood about acoustics, particularly as related to the flute. What they taught their students (who much like you probably just absorbed what they were told without question), did not and does not match up with the science. Think about the scales on the flutes the "greats" were using. If they had had the knowledge of acoustics necessary to inprove them, don't you think they would have done so? I also will not be posting in this thread after this, but in case younger readers are following this, I will repeat it one last time:

The lower partials carry the sound. If you want to get your sound to carry, you need to play with more lower partials.

[atoriphile]

The answer can be found here:

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae557.cfm

Lower frequency sound waves have a greater distance between the peaks, so they can 'go around' objects that might be in their way, so in most instances would travel farther in all directions without decreasing in intensity.

Higher frequency sound waves tend to be more 'directional' because of their higher power. So if a higher pitch is aimed directly at you and there is nothing in the way, it will sound louder (even though technically it is not any louder).

So, from what I can gather, it seems you are BOTH right!

[fluteguy18]

Alexbharris-- I find it appalling that you believe that Flutepicc [Chris] and I Fluteguy [Adam] are the same person. Look at our posts, and take a close examination of our vocabulary, and gramatical structure. You will find upon such a review that we are in fact quite different people. He is currently in Colorado, and I am currently in Kentucky. Richmond Kentucky in fact, in my dorm room writing to you.

Please dont make such an accusation without evidence to support such irrational thinking.

However, I once agree with the statement to not neccessarily agree with everything that your teacher tells you. You must be an independant thinker, and an analytical one at that. I do believe I have already stated this example [somewhere on here] that my teacher has told one of my fellow flutists that the gold plating on her flute has affected her tone. Which, as any well informed flutist knows, is pure myth. The gold is FAR too thin to change one's sound [ the gold leaf is less than 10 molecules thick--- I watched a special on TV regarding the process of plating/ gilding objects].

[sidekicker]

Can we just put an end to this idiotic cat fight between you guys, please?

If there's nothing more to add to this thread other than accusations of aliases, etc., requesting an analyses of writing styles to "prove" this and that, then let's just let this thread die. Who cares?

We're way off topic, and the immature scratching and clawing that has gone on for days now is getting old; not to mention boring to the rest of us (at least to me).

SK

[woof]

I love discussions of physics of sound- It is great to understand music at all levels and several of you have brought some great ideas to this discussion. As for sound projecting over water better than over land I recall hearing conversations of people in boats a long way off on a quiet calm day. Water surface does reflect (therefore not absorbed) the compression waves of sound really well and it does carry for long distances over water. Which begs the flute related question "is it proper etiquette to plays ones flute by the shore of lake on a quiet day and thus disturb the people on the other side miles away??