Repair of nicks and dents - photo attached

[mirwa]

Are there any flutes beyond help, I wonder. Fear not skillful restoration at hand.

There are times when it becomes a case of economics, everything on a flute can be rebuilt, but economics place a major part.

Example chinese flute costs $89 to purchase and requires a repad cost $200, its not worth repairing
Example yamaha flute costs $1000 to purchase and needs a repad cost $200, it is worth repairing.

Example gemeinhardt 2sp flute costs $350 needs major mechanical overhaul, cost is $500, its not worth repairing
Haynes flute costs $2600 needs major mechanical overhaul, cost is $500, it is worth doing.

My point above is everything is repairable and I like most others have probably seen it all, but economics plays the largest role in a repair

I currently have a haynes flute open hole that needs to be converted to a closed hole, this involves the fabrication of a tone hole and cutting a hole into the side of the flute to allow for a rear G#, also then the remodification of keys to accomodate. Anything can be done, but how deep is the wallet

[flutego12]

Are there any flutes beyond help, I wonder. Fear not skillful restoration at hand.

There are times when it becomes a case of economics, everything on a flute can be rebuilt, but economics place a major part.

Example chinese flute costs $89 to purchase and requires a repad cost $200, its not worth repairing
Example yamaha flute costs $1000 to purchase and needs a repad cost $200, it is worth repairing.

Example gemeinhardt 2sp flute costs $350 needs major mechanical overhaul, cost is $500, its not worth repairing
Haynes flute costs $2600 needs major mechanical overhaul, cost is $500, it is worth doing.

My point above is everything is repairable and I like most others have probably seen it all, but economics plays the largest role in a repair

I currently have a haynes flute open hole that needs to be converted to a closed hole, this involves the fabrication of a tone hole and cutting a hole into the side of the flute to allow for a rear G#, also then the remodification of keys to accomodate. Anything can be done, but how deep is the wallet

The question was more directed at whether it risks ending up worse than before, in which case better toleave alone.

[pied_piper]

Are there any flutes beyond help, I wonder. Fear not skillful restoration at hand.

There are times when it becomes a case of economics, everything on a flute can be rebuilt, but economics place a major part.

Example chinese flute costs $89 to purchase and requires a repad cost $200, its not worth repairing
Example yamaha flute costs $1000 to purchase and needs a repad cost $200, it is worth repairing.

Example gemeinhardt 2sp flute costs $350 needs major mechanical overhaul, cost is $500, its not worth repairing
Haynes flute costs $2600 needs major mechanical overhaul, cost is $500, it is worth doing.

My point above is everything is repairable and I like most others have probably seen it all, but economics plays the largest role in a repair

I currently have a haynes flute open hole that needs to be converted to a closed hole, this involves the fabrication of a tone hole and cutting a hole into the side of the flute to allow for a rear G#, also then the remodification of keys to accomodate. Anything can be done, but how deep is the wallet

The question was more directed at whether it risks ending up worse than before, in which case better toleave alone.

The risk is mostly with the repair tech not having the necessary tools and skills to perform whatever tasks are required. For example, as a well-equipped part-time tech, I can do most common repairs including play conditions, repads, mechanical overhauls, soldering, and dent removal. Would I attempt to do what mirwa described above (converting a Haynes flute from an open G# to closed G#)? No. I do not have all the necessary tools and skills for that and would refer that repair to someone else. It is most important for a tech to know their limitations and never attempt a repair beyond their skills without supervision and guidance to avoid possibly doing irreparable damage to an instrument.

Ignoring those rules means the tech may be better suited for converting musical instruments into lamps...

[mirwa]

[ignore those rules means the tech may be better suited for converting musical instruments into lamps...

Like this

[pied_piper]

Precisely! I think many BIR techs have made a lamp or two from an instrument - I know I have made them from clunkers as gifts for friends. Hopefully, it is by choice though and the instrument deserved to be put out of our misery - not because the tech messed up...

[mirwa]

I put this one out of its misery because it was made in china

[flutego12]

Some times you have to make it look worse to make it better.

Ive attached a link for a trumpet example.

The process is still the same.

http://www.ultrainspections.com/Dent_Repairs_Brass.html

You need a mandrel for the headjoint, you need a rawhide hammer, you need a small burnisher, you need a small roller, then you need to be able to lightly buff the surface and surrounding areas

Steve

Hi Steve. Thanks for the shopping list B/n MMedic and JLS (mandrels), I'm wondering whether to get the double handed roller$39 fr JLS or the single handed straight & curved fr MM for $7.50 each.
What IS the difference b/n a burnisher and a roller?
Thinking of the small mallet.
Mandrel - can one get away with just the one w/o getting one for head one for middle joint?

[pied_piper]

Hi Steve. Thanks for the shopping list B/n MMedic and JLS (mandrels), I'm wondering whether to get the double handed roller$39 fr JLS or the single handed straight & curved fr MM for $7.50 each.
What IS the difference b/n a burnisher and a roller?
Thinking of the small mallet.
Mandrel - can one get away with just the one w/o getting one for head one for middle joint?

Pardon my jumping in, but are you referring to the double handle burnisher from JLS? JLS sells one of those for $39 (P/N 242004). That one is primarily used for expanding headjoint tenons but it can have other uses as well. I have not seen any straight or curved burnishers for $7.50 from them. Provide a P/N or link.

A burnisher is a solid piece of metal (usually) and is used to rub and smooth metal. A roller typically has a metal surface but it has ball bearings in it to allow it roll over rather than rub metal. Burnishers can leave some marks in the metal which must be polished out afterward. Because rollers do not rub the metal, it will often leave fewer marks to be polished out. Rollers typically cost much more than burnishers. Each has their place. Burnishers often have a smaller work surface which is convenient for working in areas around tone holes for example (rollers generally can't be used between tone holes because they are too big but there are a few very small, specialized rollers that can work close to tone holes - see Ferrees P1 http://www.ferreestools.com/index_files/Page92.htm). Rollers are very nice for removing dents from head joints (away from the embouchure plate) or the body (away from tone holes).

For a complete shop, you really need both a body and a headjoint mandrel. The body mandrel is straight but the headjoint mandrel is tapered to fit a headjoint. The body mandrel cannot be used in the tapered area of a headjoint and the tapered headjoint mandrel is not long enough for body work.

[flutego12]

Pardon my jumping in, but are you referring to the double handle burnisher from JLS? JLS sells one of those for $39 (P/N 242004). That one is primarily used for expanding headjoint tenons but it can have other uses as well. I have not seen any straight or curved burnishers for $7.50 from them. Provide a P/N or link.Glad you did Bob, the burnishers are from Musicmedic.

A burnisher is a solid piece of metal (usually) and is used to rub and smooth metal. A roller typically has a metal surface but it has ball bearings in it to allow it roll over rather than rub metal. Burnishers can leave some marks in the metal which must be polished out afterward. Because rollers do not rub the metal, it will often leave fewer marks to be polished out. Rollers typically cost much more than burnishers. Each has their place. Burnishers often have a smaller work surface which is convenient for working in areas around tone holes for example (rollers generally can't be used between tone holes because they are too big but there are a few very small, specialized rollers that can work close to tone holes - see Ferrees P1 http://www.ferreestools.com/index_files/Page92.htm). Rollers are very nice for removing dents from head joints (away from the embouchure plate) or the body (away from tone holes).

For a complete shop, you really need both a body and a headjoint mandrel. The body mandrel is straight but the headjoint mandrel is tapered to fit a headjoint. The body mandrel cannot be used in the tapered area of a headjoint and the tapered headjoint mandrel is not long enough for body work.[/quote]

[mirwa]

Pardon my jumping in, but are you referring to the double handle burnisher from JLS? JLS sells one of those for $39 (P/N 242004). That one is primarily used for expanding headjoint tenons but it can have other uses as well. I have not seen any straight or curved burnishers for $7.50 from them. Provide a P/N or link.

Jump in its all about sharing information.

Flutego12, there is no one tool that will remove every dent, it is usually a combination of tools that gives a good finish, for me a burnisher is used to remove hard creases or ridges that are at the ends of dents, the roller is used at completion of the job to try and blend the worked area into the surrounding areas, a roller will not remove a crease mark, a burnisher will not blend the stretched metal in properly, its combinations of different rollers and different burnishers that will give you a good result.

Compare it this way, you have to pull an engine a part, your given one tool a "shifter crescent", that expands and closes to fit each different nut / bolt size, yes you can get the engine apart but it wont be easy and you will leave marks on the nuts and bolts, you will skin your knuckles every tim e it slips off etc, but if you had a spanner of every sized nut and bolt available, the job would be far easier and way less damage would occur.

My point, you can sort of get by with one or two tools, but combinations of each do a better job and make the job easier

[flutego12]

Pardon my jumping in, but are you referring to the double handle burnisher from JLS? JLS sells one of those for $39 (P/N 242004). That one is primarily used for expanding headjoint tenons but it can have other uses as well. I have not seen any straight or curved burnishers for $7.50 from them. Provide a P/N or link.

Jump in its all about sharing information.

Flutego12, there is no one tool that will remove every dent, it is usually a combination of tools that gives a good finish, for me a burnisher is used to remove hard creases or ridges that are at the ends of dents, the roller is used at completion of the job to try and blend the worked area into the surrounding areas, a roller will not remove a crease mark, a burnisher will not blend the stretched metal in properly, its combinations of different rollers and different burnishers that will give you a good result.

Compare it this way, you have to pull an engine a part, your given one tool a "shifter crescent", that expands and closes to fit each different nut / bolt size, yes you can get the engine apart but it wont be easy and you will leave marks on the nuts and bolts, you will skin your knuckles every tim e it slips off etc, but if you had a spanner of every sized nut and bolt available, the job would be far easier and way less damage would occur.

My point, you can sort of get by with one or two tools, but combinations of each do a better job and make the job easier

Makes sense Mirwa. Lucky JLS, you've just sold the shop a few times over.
What do you think of
JLS's roller v Ferees new fancy roller
Medic's burnisher v Feree's

And ... are you by any chance off loading your flute station?

[flutego12]

I'm screwed...

Dismantling was easy enough.
Reassembling was ok...ish. Was good. G# ... Bb... then comes the long rod with the trill keys...
Somewhere between fatigue and a phone call distraction, I got my left and right pivot screws mixed up.
aaaARGH!
Can't be the end of the world right?
Just need to try one by one. Irony was I DID leave the screws IN as advised but then they got mixed up anyways prior to reassembly
Should have made a makeshift screw board whilst waiting for the real one from the states.

[pied_piper]

I'm screwed...

Dismantling was easy enough.
Reassembling was ok...ish. Was good. G# ... Bb... then comes the long rod with the trill keys...
Somewhere between fatigue and a phone call distraction, I got my left and right pivot screws mixed up.
aaaARGH!
Can't be the end of the world right?
Just need to try one by one. Irony was I DID leave the screws IN as advised but then they got mixed up anyways prior to reassembly
Should have made a makeshift screw board whilst waiting for the real one from the states.

FG12 - Since you are working on a clunker project flute, no, it's not the end of the world. If your flute is a major brand student level flute, most of the pivot screws are the same on any given flute and are interchangeable. The L and R trill key pivots should be the same, but if not, it will just be a trial and error method to sort it out.

[flutego12]

I'm screwed...

Dismantling was easy enough.
Reassembling was ok...ish. Was good. G# ... Bb... then comes the long rod with the trill keys...
Somewhere between fatigue and a phone call distraction, I got my left and right pivot screws mixed up.
aaaARGH!
Can't be the end of the world right?
Just need to try one by one. Irony was I DID leave the screws IN as advised but then they got mixed up anyways prior to reassembly
Should have made a makeshift screw board whilst waiting for the real one from the states.

FG12 - Since you are working on a clunker project flute, no, it's not the end of the world. If your flute is a major brand student level flute, most of the pivot screws are the same on any given flute and are interchangeable. The L and R trill key pivots should be the same, but if not, it will just be a trial and error method to sort it out.

Exactly what I'm doing, PP. Trial and error.
Well, you are almost right there. One of the screws was actually very loose on the wrong side. Under the magnifying glass, 1 screw had 6 thread whilst the other 2 had 5. I'm on my way again. Thanks for walking me through. Really helps.

[pied_piper]

Makes sense Mirwa. Lucky JLS, you've just sold the shop a few times over.
What do you think of
JLS's roller v Ferees new fancy roller
Medic's burnisher v Feree's

And ... are you by any chance off loading your flute station?

If you have more time than money and are feeling ambitious, you can make your own double handle burnisher from a screwdriver. Choose a screwdriver where the blade shank is round and maybe 6-10 mm in diameter. You'll need a buffing wheel and polishing compounds to polish the metal to a mirror finish. Cut a piece of an old wood broom handle to make the handle for the other end. Drill a hole and use epoxy to secure it in place. VOILA! You have a double handle burnisher...