Dentwork, metal work - hammers, burnishers and the like

[flutego12]

Advice Sought on Metalwork for Dent removal - in this case, pimply surface.

I have 3Qs I'm seeking advice on:

1) How does one remove a mandrel stuck in a headjoint? as in , really stuck.

2) How does one smoothen out pimply bumps (copper tooling type) from the surface of a silver-plated headjoint.?

I have a student Jupiter headjoint with a cluster of 5-8 "pimples" (or goosebumps) distributed between the tenon and the headjoint surface above the tenon. The child had, during class, inadvertently banged his headjoint against the back of a chair when flicking away moisture. The father had tried to fix it so it would fit the body again - dont' know how he did it but the headjoint scored a patch of pimples (I'm not even sure how that is even achieved or if it's a legacy blemish from another occassion.

I am hoping somebody would enlighten me.
I have mandrel, burnishers, rawhide hammer, delrin hammers - but no roller.

3) I also need to shrink the headjoint tenon slightly for an easier but snug fit. My current curved plier is too shallow (3/4 inch?) and cannot ready higher into the tenon.

[fluteguy18]

Post pictures. This is really one of those things where pictures are necessary. These could be any wide variety of metal working problems and they all have different approaches to remedy.

[bigbandaxes]

Funny you should ask about a head joint stuck on a tapered mandrel!!! About 15 years ago I had a Yamaha flute in for repair that needed some dents taken out of the head. So, following my usual procedure, I removed the head cork assembly, cleaned the bore of all foreign debris. Wiped down the mandrel and mounted it in the vise. Then I slid the head joint onto the mandrel and removed the dents. Nothing new, nothing different than I had done thousands of times before. But that head joint NEVER came off that mandrel. I tried every trick in the book and I know a lot of them. I even called my mentor from the early days (it was nice to get back in touch) and tried some of his tricks of the trade. Nothing worked.

To this day I don't know why it got stuck. It must have been an absolutely perfect fit like the morse 2 taper on a tail stock center. I had to replace both the mandrel and customers head joint.

Crazy!!!

[mirwa]

Advice Sought on Metalwork for Dent removal - in this case, pimply surface.

I have 3Qs I'm seeking advice on:

1) How does one remove a mandrel stuck in a headjoint? as in , really stuck.

2) How does one smoothen out pimply bumps (copper tooling type) from the surface of a silver-plated headjoint.?

I have a student Jupiter headjoint with a cluster of 5-8 "pimples" (or goosebumps) distributed between the tenon and the headjoint surface above the tenon. The child had, during class, inadvertently banged his headjoint against the back of a chair when flicking away moisture. The father had tried to fix it so it would fit the body again - dont' know how he did it but the headjoint scored a patch of pimples (I'm not even sure how that is even achieved or if it's a legacy blemish from another occassion.

I am hoping somebody would enlighten me.
I have mandrel, burnishers, rawhide hammer, delrin hammers - but no roller.

3) I also need to shrink the headjoint tenon slightly for an easier but snug fit. My current curved plier is too shallow (3/4 inch?) and cannot ready higher into the tenon.

Your starting to jump in deeper now by the sounds of it, go carefully as it can become expensive if you get it wrong.

[mirwa]

If the head joint is stuck on the mandrel, the first thing to do is stop..........

Now relax and look at the job again, why is it stuck, where is it stuck,

Most head joints are parabolic in shape most mandrels are tapered in shape so this means that the mandrel and head joint are not perfect fits, take a light steel hammer and gently tap around the head joint to find where it is touching and where it is not,

if it is touching as I suspect on the outer edges of the head joint, then you need to ring it to release, that is you need to hit the mandrel to send a vibration through the mandrel, this will usually be sufficient for it to break the bond.

If it's touching in the middle and the edges then you have forced the mandrel to far inside and have stretched the ends, this is a bit more difficult to repair, I would use a rawhide hammer around the whole head joint to try and stretch the metal

If it's touching only at the point of a dent, then you need to work that dent for it too release

[mirwa]

I'm not sure what you mean by pimples, are you meaning hammer marks impressions from reworking the dents

[mirwa]

To shrink the tenon for fitment you need a collet swedger, ideally you will also have an expander to allow for fine fitment,

To this end you are only working and dealing with the head joint tenon, there is also the other side the socket / receiver, if you are going to be serious in this field you should also consider buying socket mandrels for tapping receivers back into shape.

[flutego12]

If the head joint is stuck on the mandrel, the first thing to do is stop..........

Now relax and look at the job again, why is it stuck, where is it stuck,

Most head joints are parabolic in shape most mandrels are tapered in shape so this means that the mandrel and head joint are not perfect fits, take a light steel hammer and gently tap around the head joint to find where it is touching and where it is not,

if it is touching as I suspect on the outer edges of the head joint, then you need to ring it to release, that is you need to hit the mandrel to send a vibration through the mandrel, this will usually be sufficient for it to break the bond.

If it's touching in the middle and the edges then you have forced the mandrel to far inside and have stretched the ends, this is a bit more difficult to repair, I would use a rawhide hammer around the whole head joint to try and stretch the metal

If it's touching only at the point of a dent, then you need to work that dent for it too release

Thank you, Steve, in the end, I surrendered and brought it in to my tech. He just vise gripped the mandrel and used both hands to twist and pull the flute out.
(Incidentally, my rawhide hammer seem to peel and bruise, it is dented in the edges from another job - is this normal?)

[flutego12]

I'm not sure what you mean by pimples, are you meaning hammer marks impressions from reworking the dents

They literally look like goose bumps - when I got the flute, they were already there. Someone must've tried to work it loose. It was a really poor attempt.
The lip plate was dented in and the headjoint scratched - tenon pimpled.

It was a piece of work and still too tight. Am awaiting equipment from the states.

[flutego12]

To shrink the tenon for fitment you need a collet swedger, ideally you will also have an expander to allow for fine fitment,

To this end you are only working and dealing with the head joint tenon, there is also the other side the socket / receiver, if you are going to be serious in this field you should also consider buying socket mandrels for tapping receivers back into shape.

Thanks for preempting my Q here, Steve.
I know you've shared views about the Flute Station b4. Would the above equipment be a much more effective solution than the Flute Station for a person like me?
Just been to Votaw's website (easier to navigate for info than ferree's though ferree's is highly respected) - so many things to buy...$$$

Just need the bare few tools and ...
My biggest challenge is structural work - elbow grease and skill. I'm inclined to leave that well alone if I can help it. How effective really is Flute Station for tenon and minor dent work? It is an expensive eye candy, be great if it works well too. I really like the concept, the look, not so much the price(Y) but need to know that it really works for newbies like me.

[flutego12]

Funny you should ask about a head joint stuck on a tapered mandrel!!! About 15 years ago I had a Yamaha flute in for repair that needed some dents taken out of the head. So, following my usual procedure, I removed the head cork assembly, cleaned the bore of all foreign debris. Wiped down the mandrel and mounted it in the vise. Then I slid the head joint onto the mandrel and removed the dents. Nothing new, nothing different than I had done thousands of times before. But that head joint NEVER came off that mandrel. I tried every trick in the book and I know a lot of them. I even called my mentor from the early days (it was nice to get back in touch) and tried some of his tricks of the trade. Nothing worked.

To this day I don't know why it got stuck. It must have been an absolutely perfect fit like the morse 2 taper on a tail stock center. I had to replace both the mandrel and customers head joint.

Crazy!!!

Haha I'm sure it wasn't funny then.

[fluteguy18]

I would not invest in a flute station right now if I were you. I think you need to get your hands on a few junk flutes and just dent the heck out of them and then practice with common hand tools. The flute station is a neat tool, but is not all that necessary. You can still do all of the work you need with a less elaborate set up (and for less money).

Just get your hands on a good body mandrel, some rawhide mallets (that the heads have been softened... I put leather on mine), some delrin headed hammers (a large one and a small one), some burnishers, and perhaps some steel dent hammers.

Once you get a junker to plunk around with, dent it in one spot, and then take the dent out. Then do it again. Over and over.

[mirwa]

Im really not a fan of the flute station, its beautifully made, and yes I have one and last time I used it was about 5 yrs ago (im guessing here but it would be close), and that was more for show and tell, but in reality it does not provide anything more than the most basic tools needed for most jobs, by buying it you limit the money spent to just flute repairs only, for the same money the tools you buy will allow you to repair flutes/trumpets/saxes etc..

[flutego12]

I would not invest in a flute station right now if I were you. I think you need to get your hands on a few junk flutes and just dent the heck out of them and then practice with common hand tools. The flute station is a neat tool, but is not all that necessary. You can still do all of the work you need with a less elaborate set up (and for less money).

Just get your hands on a good body mandrel, some rawhide mallets (that the heads have been softened... I put leather on mine), some delrin headed hammers (a large one and a small one), some burnishers, and perhaps some steel dent hammers.

Once you get a junker to plunk around with, dent it in one spot, and then take the dent out. Then do it again. Over and over.

I'm not sure if I have the elbow grease to
Anything to help me use the minimal elbow grease would be gr8.
I try to minimize structural jobs by declining and referring them to my fav tech, but thought I would venture into some "easy" ones, which is often seen.
I'd leave the max greasing to you guys.
But thought I'd like to at least be able to shrink hj tenon - currently there is an outstanding on this (maybe expand receiver)
Take out dimples and understand how to remove minor dents - principles of metalwork - eg where to hit what type of dent, what with, what the burnisher is for, which tool in what order... that sort of thing

[flutego12]

Im really not a fan of the flute station, its beautifully made, and yes I have one and last time I used it was about 5 yrs ago (im guessing here but it would be close), and that was more for show and tell, but in reality it does not provide anything more than the most basic tools needed for most jobs, by buying it you limit the money spent to just flute repairs only, for the same money the tools you buy will allow you to repair flutes/trumpets/saxes etc..

Hi Steve.
Between Votaw, JLS and ferree - what tools do you suggest i get instead? Mainly for Flute and Sax (and maybe some clarinet) I haven't yet got a Key puncher yet or a vise or benchmotor or polishing wheel or a torque screwdriver, or handheld digital key tension measurement tool (what spec to use for sax and flute work)?

Right now I desperately
1) need to shrink a hj tenon
2) have an alto sax with a slightly flat lower lip (1/8th circumference) it has 3 crimps on it (seller claims it was perfect when he sent it unless it was damaged by packer)... which doubt- I'll prob take to a tech but am curious as be WHAT tools are used and HOW that is tapped or whacked back into shape.
3) another sax, a tenor has a frozen shut Vise Bb & lever arm because of the slightest kink during shipping - this was not well packaged - am hoping to find a bench motor in the garage to set up and use to straighten the rod (per MattStohrer) - not sure how to straighten the hinge tube.