As a recent adult beginner, I recently bought a Korg chromatic tuner, thinking that it would be of use in helping to produce a good embouchure (rather than playing in tune - though it can't hurt - and they're not expensive. I do understand that playing in tune in all registers is more a matter of developing the ear instead of relying on the tuner and is a major part of practice. I mention this to avoid the 'use your ear instead' replies!). Initial experiments have shown that I'm playing consistently flat in the lower register which I'm now working on (ie more work on my embouchure), so from that point of view it seems a worthwhile investment. However, there's something I can't quite figure out:
When I set the tuner to A=440, to get an A1 in tune I have to pull the headjoint out no more than about 1/16" or 1.5mm from fully home. Presumably pulling out more than this would mean that A<=439 etc. My flute is a brand new Yamaha and I've read somewhere that it's tuned to A=442. Am I right in thinking that to achieve this tuning, the headjoint would have to be pushed all the way in? If I set the tuner to A=442 and leave the headjoint where it is at 1.5mm, I'm going to be even more flat as I'm lengthening the tube, right? (other things being equal). Any permutations beyond this are frying my brain...
I suppose the main thrust of my question is that it seems to me that developing the embouchure is not just about producing a nice tone, but equally about being able to play in tune throughout the registers, hence using the tuner as a reference. So, what's the best position for the headjoint, bearing in mind that developing the ear is also important? Or doesn't it matter?
Tuning and playing in tune
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
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flutepicc06
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It doesn't matter where the headjoint is, in that you can play in tune with it in any position as long as you're flexible enough, but how easy it is to correct any pitch permutations will change where you want to put it. 1.5 mm out is just about the usual. Right there, it should be playing at 442 (assuming you're correct about it being built to this pitch standard). Makers leave a little extra on the head so you can both push in and out, though this really isn't a very effective way to tune, as it will change pitch relationships unevenly. There is one spot where the scale of the flute is at it's best (where the most notes are the most in tune before your ability to adjust even comes into play). This position changes from person to person and flute to flute depending on the playing characteristics of both, so we can't really say "pull the head out exactly 1.473 mm and it'll be right" unfortunately. In order to find this spot, play C1, and lift your left thumb until C2 speaks. Then without any manipulations to your airstream, compare the pitch of the overblown note to the "true" fingering. If they're a dead on match, leave it there, and do the same with D1 and D2. Once the harmonic pitches match the "real" pitches, your head is about where you should have it. From there, on a well built flute, most pitches throughout the first and second octave should be just about in tune, though you may need to baby a couple. The third octave may need some extra work to pull the pitch to where you want it to be. Rather than moving the headjoint to correct pitch, as most flutists seem to believe is the proper method, use your air. Raise the airstream slightly to bring pitch up, and lower it slightly to flatten pitch. I hope that helps/answers your questions. If not, please let us know!
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fluteguy18
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definately good advice. I would have the position of the headjoint cork checked. This is because, if it is too far from the lip plate, then it will dramatically effect the tuning of the flute [make it flat the further away it is, sharp the closer it is to the lip plate].
However, this problem with flat low notes is very normal for players at most levels of playing [it is just making sure you remember to pull up the pitch]. But if the exact flute you have is indeed tuned to A= 442, then I would suggest having the headjoint cork positioning checked [you can do a rough 'estimated' check].
To roughly check it yourself, take the cleaning rod that came with the flute. On the end without the eyelet, there is a groove that goes around the end of the rod. If you insert this into the headjoint, and look into the embouchure hole, the groove should be in the center of the embouchure hole.
If it is not, and needs adjusting, I would would have a tech do it for you, and show you how to do it so that you can adjust it yourself next time. But, if you know how to do it yourself, and have done so before, then go on and adjust it.
However, this problem with flat low notes is very normal for players at most levels of playing [it is just making sure you remember to pull up the pitch]. But if the exact flute you have is indeed tuned to A= 442, then I would suggest having the headjoint cork positioning checked [you can do a rough 'estimated' check].
To roughly check it yourself, take the cleaning rod that came with the flute. On the end without the eyelet, there is a groove that goes around the end of the rod. If you insert this into the headjoint, and look into the embouchure hole, the groove should be in the center of the embouchure hole.
If it is not, and needs adjusting, I would would have a tech do it for you, and show you how to do it so that you can adjust it yourself next time. But, if you know how to do it yourself, and have done so before, then go on and adjust it.
Thanks to both for your thoughts. They're much appreciated. To be honest, I don't want the hassle of worrying about tuning - except obviously with regard to embouchure. There's too much to think about already! So being confident about where the headjoint should be for optimum tuning is a obviously crucial. I'll definitely use your method, flutepicc06 (I've read many of your posts with keen interest)
I do check the postiton of the cork every time I swab out the headjoint (are other new players equally neurotic?) and according to my cleaning rod it's spot on. This point does tend to be hammered home by just about everyone, but thanks for the reminder! Even so, I'm extremely reluctant to tamper with it. Just the thought of adjusting it brings me out in a rash! Finding a reliable (ie trustworthy and fast) tech within a reasonable distance is another hurdle, but since my flute is new this is on the back burner for the time being...
Could I ask whether you'd agree that using a tuner for reference throughout the registers is a good idea (without it becoming a crutch, of course)?
I do check the postiton of the cork every time I swab out the headjoint (are other new players equally neurotic?) and according to my cleaning rod it's spot on. This point does tend to be hammered home by just about everyone, but thanks for the reminder! Even so, I'm extremely reluctant to tamper with it. Just the thought of adjusting it brings me out in a rash! Finding a reliable (ie trustworthy and fast) tech within a reasonable distance is another hurdle, but since my flute is new this is on the back burner for the time being...
Could I ask whether you'd agree that using a tuner for reference throughout the registers is a good idea (without it becoming a crutch, of course)?
Headjoint position is always a compromise. The low octave is generally flat and the high octave is mostly sharp. To gain better control over your intonation, practice bending notes up and down as far as you can.
Playing in tune and playing with good tone seem to come together--I don't think of them as separate issues.
Playing in tune and playing with good tone seem to come together--I don't think of them as separate issues.
Definitely use the tuner, for example, when practicing tone exercises. If your flute is pitched at A442, then you'll have to pull out the head a bit more than normal, to lower the pitch, if you're attempting to play to A440. Longer tube length, lower pitch. You mentioned flat low notes--be sure, as you descend (or any other time as well), to avoid turning the flute in toward your body, as covering more of the embouchure hole will noticably lower the pitch, as well as change the tone color. As was previously mentioned, tone production and good intonation are virtually inextricable, but tone comes first. If your tone is poorly or inconsistently produced, your intonation has no prayer. Your headjoint position, for tuning purposes, is relative to many factors, including your nacent tone production skills, as well as your airsteam placement, breath support, and personal resonance characteristics. Keep at it, you'll do great! 
"There is no 'Try'; there is only 'Do'."--Yoda
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flutepicc06
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I'm glad we could help! And it's nice to know that someone finds my posts interesting...I do my best to help wherever I can!Baz wrote: I'll definitely use your method, flutepicc06 (I've read many of your posts with keen interest)
Could I ask whether you'd agree that using a tuner for reference throughout the registers is a good idea (without it becoming a crutch, of course)?
As for the tuner, it's a very good idea. Obviously, when playing in an ensemble, no one's going by the little box, so as you said, your ears should be your primary method of tuning, but it's an excellent idea to learn where the pitches are on your flute by using a tuner for your own private practice. Chances are you'll find that the tone is at its best when the notes are in tune. It's a little phenomena that can help you pick out how far from pitch you are later when you become more comfortable with just listening. Besides tuning, there are other exercises you can do with a tuner that can help your playing immensely, so it's definitely worth having a tuner around whenever you practice.
Thanks to all for your replies... Strange how the little things tend to niggle the most! I'm very impressed with the Korg tuner - recommended to me by a sax playing friend, and a great piece of kit.
flutepicc06 - Would you care to elaborate (just a little would do) on these other exercises? I'm intrigued. (I won't tell you how many of your posts (along with others, of course) I have saved in a text file called, surprise, 'Flute Stuff'. This is intended as a compliment - not a bribe!)
flutepicc06 - Would you care to elaborate (just a little would do) on these other exercises? I'm intrigued. (I won't tell you how many of your posts (along with others, of course) I have saved in a text file called, surprise, 'Flute Stuff'. This is intended as a compliment - not a bribe!)
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flutepicc06
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Please don't bust a gut! I'm in Manchester, England and it's almost 10:30pm here - and I'm off to bed shortly - been a long day - and I've just finished my practice. Long tones - don't you just love 'em?
Just wanted to say thanks a million in advance. I'll check back tomorrow... Hope the rehearsal went OK!
I heard this story recently - it gave me a laugh. Hope it gives you one too!
A bandleader is in need of a trumpet player to fill the 1st chair - so he sticks a notice up outside the rehearsal room that says "Trumpet player wanted, must solo - apply within" and waits. Half an hour later a dapper chap walks in. Posh coat, nice hat, very sharp suit. In his gloved hand he carries a crocodile skin case, from which he pulls a pristine gold plated trumpet. He puts the trumpet to his lips and blows. He's not bad, nice tone, good lines - but a bit stiff perhaps. So the bandleader takes his number and says he'll maybe call.
He waits another hour so and another man turns up. This chap is a rather less well dressed - a slightly tired sports jacket, a pair of clean but tatty cords, and his trumpet case has obviously seen a few gigs. He gets his trumpet out. It's a lot less shiny than the last bloke's - the lacquer has peeled in places and there are a couple of small dents here and there - but he puts it to his lips and blows. Oh the sweet sound he gets out of it, the flowing lines...he's a great player..so the bandleader takes his number too and says he'll call.
He decides to give it a little longer, and eventually he hears someone coming. There's a barrage of coughing as the man enters the room - and as soon as he does the bandleader can smell the drink on him. The man wears a grubby overcoat tied up in the middle with a bit of string, tatty shoes, a hat that has holes in it - he's unshaven and his hair is greasy and wild. Under his arm he carries a roll of dirty brown cloth, from which he
extracts a truly manky looking trumpet. It has no lacquer, in places it's going green and bits of tape hold various tubes in place....but he puts the trumpet gently, carefully, lovingly to his lips and blows........and he's sh**!!
Just wanted to say thanks a million in advance. I'll check back tomorrow... Hope the rehearsal went OK!
I heard this story recently - it gave me a laugh. Hope it gives you one too!
A bandleader is in need of a trumpet player to fill the 1st chair - so he sticks a notice up outside the rehearsal room that says "Trumpet player wanted, must solo - apply within" and waits. Half an hour later a dapper chap walks in. Posh coat, nice hat, very sharp suit. In his gloved hand he carries a crocodile skin case, from which he pulls a pristine gold plated trumpet. He puts the trumpet to his lips and blows. He's not bad, nice tone, good lines - but a bit stiff perhaps. So the bandleader takes his number and says he'll maybe call.
He waits another hour so and another man turns up. This chap is a rather less well dressed - a slightly tired sports jacket, a pair of clean but tatty cords, and his trumpet case has obviously seen a few gigs. He gets his trumpet out. It's a lot less shiny than the last bloke's - the lacquer has peeled in places and there are a couple of small dents here and there - but he puts it to his lips and blows. Oh the sweet sound he gets out of it, the flowing lines...he's a great player..so the bandleader takes his number too and says he'll call.
He decides to give it a little longer, and eventually he hears someone coming. There's a barrage of coughing as the man enters the room - and as soon as he does the bandleader can smell the drink on him. The man wears a grubby overcoat tied up in the middle with a bit of string, tatty shoes, a hat that has holes in it - he's unshaven and his hair is greasy and wild. Under his arm he carries a roll of dirty brown cloth, from which he
extracts a truly manky looking trumpet. It has no lacquer, in places it's going green and bits of tape hold various tubes in place....but he puts the trumpet gently, carefully, lovingly to his lips and blows........and he's sh**!!
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flutepicc06
- Posts: 1353
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:34 pm
Sorry I didn't get to this last night like I said I would. I ran into a little family related trouble (nothing major) that needed taking care of just as I started to reply.
Anyway, about tuner exercises....you can combine the tuner with tone matching exercises and use it to help increase dynamic range without losing pitch. If you do the Moyse/Wye long tones moving chromatically, you should be attempting to match tone as you change notes, but add a crescendo if you're moving downward, or a decrescendo if you're moving upward, and it can add a whole new facet to the exercise. This is where the tuner comes in. It's all too common to go sharp as you increase volume, and to fall flat as you decrease it, so you use the tuner to improve the quality of your dynamics. You can jump octaves while using a tuner to be sure that you're still in tune while matching the tone of the two notes. You might even use the tuner to help you with vibrato. Since a good vibrato is essentially a controlled pitch modulation that will go as far flat as it does sharp (producing the illusion of being in tune), you can check this by slowing down the waves, and trying to match the flats with the sharps. These are just a few of the more common exercises that a tuner can be handy for, but I'm sure others have different ideas, and you can even make up your own (which is part of the learning process anyway). If you'd like any clarification on anything, let me know, and I'll do my best!
Just out of curiosity, would you be willing to send me that text file you mentioned? I'd be interested to know which posts you thought were worth saving!
Anyway, about tuner exercises....you can combine the tuner with tone matching exercises and use it to help increase dynamic range without losing pitch. If you do the Moyse/Wye long tones moving chromatically, you should be attempting to match tone as you change notes, but add a crescendo if you're moving downward, or a decrescendo if you're moving upward, and it can add a whole new facet to the exercise. This is where the tuner comes in. It's all too common to go sharp as you increase volume, and to fall flat as you decrease it, so you use the tuner to improve the quality of your dynamics. You can jump octaves while using a tuner to be sure that you're still in tune while matching the tone of the two notes. You might even use the tuner to help you with vibrato. Since a good vibrato is essentially a controlled pitch modulation that will go as far flat as it does sharp (producing the illusion of being in tune), you can check this by slowing down the waves, and trying to match the flats with the sharps. These are just a few of the more common exercises that a tuner can be handy for, but I'm sure others have different ideas, and you can even make up your own (which is part of the learning process anyway). If you'd like any clarification on anything, let me know, and I'll do my best!
Just out of curiosity, would you be willing to send me that text file you mentioned? I'd be interested to know which posts you thought were worth saving!
flutepicc06 - Couldn't let this thread end without saying thanks again for your advice and suggestions. Rest assured that it's ALL enormously helpful. Of course, if you're interested, I'd be only too pleased to send you my 'Flute Stuff' file. Drop me a line at barryhjazz-flute[at]yahoo[dot]co[dot]uk...
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flutepicc06
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- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:34 pm
No problem! I like to help out if at all possible, and it's nice to know that it's appreciated.Baz wrote:flutepicc06 - Couldn't let this thread end without saying thanks again for your advice and suggestions. Rest assured that it's ALL enormously helpful. Of course, if you're interested, I'd be only too pleased to send you my 'Flute Stuff' file. Drop me a line at barryhjazz-flute[at]yahoo[dot]co[dot]uk...
Re: Tuning and playing in tune
I just posted almost the exact same question in the Instruments thread. I just bought a Yamaha YFL-461H and, to my amazement, learned from the dealer that it is indeed tuned to A=442, and that in order to play at 440, I have to pull out the headjoint about 1/2 to 3/4 inch...which seems rather ridiculous to me. I was informed that this is because many European orchestras and elsewhere in the world use 442 (or 444!) and that's why all manufacturers (supposedly) are now producing only 442 instruments out of the box.Baz wrote:
When I set the tuner to A=440, to get an A1 in tune I have to pull the headjoint out no more than about 1/16" or 1.5mm from fully home. Presumably pulling out more than this would mean that A<=439 etc. My flute is a brand new Yamaha and I've read somewhere that it's tuned to A=442. Am I right in thinking that to achieve this tuning, the headjoint would have to be pushed all the way in? If I set the tuner to A=442 and leave the headjoint where it is at 1.5mm, I'm going to be even more flat as I'm lengthening the tube, right? (other things being equal). Any permutations beyond this are frying my brain...
1/2 to 3/4 inch is ridiculous. I've spent a while testing this and based on my own experiments with my chromatic tuner and following flutepicc06's advice, it seems that about 2mm is all that's required for my Yamaha to be in tune with itself and where A=442. Pushing the headjoint all the way in would therefore give A=444 (shorter tube, higher frequency and vice versa). The difference between 444 to 442 and 442 to 440 is just about audible, but it makes quite a difference when trying to accurately place intervals using a not very well developed embouchure (and that's really the point of the exercise). Remember individual notes are neither in tune nor out of tune, but intervals are. I can't recommend the use of a tuner highly enough, and if you don't have one, do yourself a favour and get one! Once your ear is sufficiently developed (forgive me if I'm preaching to the choir) you can dispense with it, but as flutepicc06 has pointed out, there are lots more uses for one.