Should I move on or try to perfect a piece?
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
Should I move on or try to perfect a piece?
I've been going through Essential Ellements book 2 and I'm on page 16. On some of the excersizes I can't ever get all the way through without mistakes. Should I just move on and forget that one or try to perfect it?
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flutepicc06
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I don't think absolute perfection on everything is what's really important, particularly at the beginning. Try to figure out what's actually causing the problems (Is it one particular note combination, or a rhythm, or something else) and try to isolate and address whatever is at the root of the problem. There was one piece consisting of 3 pitches and with eighths as the shortest duration that was absolutely the bane of my playing when I first started, and now I play things that are MUCH more complex....Improvement will happen even if you can't get everything down right away.
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sidekicker
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I'll be the oddball here and suggest that you not move on yet. There is a reason why we study etudes, etc., and that is to hone in on things that are supposed to be hard for us at first. If you do not overcome those difficulties to some degree, then you have not gotten as much out of the etude (or perhaps anything at all, depending on what the etude is addressing). Remember that these types of studies are usually meant to help us play "real" flute pieces; we translate the technique compacted into these smaller forms into larger works. It would be unacceptable, IMO, to move from one flute piece to another more advanced one being satisfied with several mistakes. We should treat etudes the same way, IMO.
I would suggest that you find a tempo that you can consistently play the exercise -- without mistakes -- before you move on to something else. It is never a good thing, in my book at least, to train ourselves to be content with mediocrity and come to the point where it's just "good enough" when it really isn't.
Good luck to you in your studies and hang in there.
We've all experienced this many times.
SK
I would suggest that you find a tempo that you can consistently play the exercise -- without mistakes -- before you move on to something else. It is never a good thing, in my book at least, to train ourselves to be content with mediocrity and come to the point where it's just "good enough" when it really isn't.
Good luck to you in your studies and hang in there.
We've all experienced this many times. SK
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flutepicc06
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Of course you're right about the purpose of etudes, SK, but I don't view simple pieces in the same light. My opinion is that as a beginner it is more important not to become discouraged by trying to play something that just isn't working for us than to try to attain absolute mastery of everything. There will be plenty of time to work out any technical issues such a simple piece may have to offer, but frustration can make people decide not to practice, or even not to play at all. I don't consider it learning to be mediocre to pass by an exercise that's outside one's current ability, though one should always return to that exercise eventually. In any case, not everyone is seeking to become a master of the flute...Plenty of people do it just for their own enjoyment or to play with a small community band, so depending on the circumstance it can be more or less important to press on with a troublesome exercise. I certainly see where you're coming from, and for serious flutists with some experience I would say you're absolutely right, but I have to respectfully disagree on this issue.
Sinebar, if you've only been on those exercises a week or two, maybe stick with it just a little bit longer and see if you can't figure them out. Try using a metronome and going through the exercises very slowly, gradually increasing the metronome marking as you have success.
If you've been on these exercises for a much longer time and are just getting terribly frustrated, I'd move on. BUT, don't forget about them! Come back to them later, after you've moved on a bit further in the book. Many times the same skill is built by approaching it from different angles. You may find that other exercises will help you improve whatever skill it is that is holding you back right now, and the exercises you're having trouble will be easier to learn.
If you've been on these exercises for a much longer time and are just getting terribly frustrated, I'd move on. BUT, don't forget about them! Come back to them later, after you've moved on a bit further in the book. Many times the same skill is built by approaching it from different angles. You may find that other exercises will help you improve whatever skill it is that is holding you back right now, and the exercises you're having trouble will be easier to learn.
Visit [url=http://www.monikadurbin.com/formiapress]Formia Press[/url] to check out my compositions and arrangements for flute and more.
sidekicker wrote:I'll be the oddball here and suggest that you not move on yet. There is a reason why we study etudes, etc., and that is to hone in on things that are supposed to be hard for us at first. If you do not overcome those difficulties to some degree, then you have not gotten as much out of the etude (or perhaps anything at all, depending on what the etude is addressing). Remember that these types of studies are usually meant to help us play "real" flute pieces; we translate the technique compacted into these smaller forms into larger works. It would be unacceptable, IMO, to move from one flute piece to another more advanced one being satisfied with several mistakes. We should treat etudes the same way, IMO.
I would suggest that you find a tempo that you can consistently play the exercise -- without mistakes -- before you move on to something else. It is never a good thing, in my book at least, to train ourselves to be content with mediocrity and come to the point where it's just "good enough" when it really isn't.
Good luck to you in your studies and hang in there.
SK
I would suggest that you find a tempo that you can consistently play the exercise -- without mistakes
Yeah if I play it at a comfortable tempo I can get through without mistakes usually.
As sidekicker suggested I can get through it slowly most of the time so that definately helps. I think Essential Ellements books progress too fast. I like them but they need to thicker with more material so they can progress slower.MonikaFL wrote:Sinebar, if you've only been on those exercises a week or two, maybe stick with it just a little bit longer and see if you can't figure them out. Try using a metronome and going through the exercises very slowly, gradually increasing the metronome marking as you have success.
If you've been on these exercises for a much longer time and are just getting terribly frustrated, I'd move on. BUT, don't forget about them! Come back to them later, after you've moved on a bit further in the book. Many times the same skill is built by approaching it from different angles. You may find that other exercises will help you improve whatever skill it is that is holding you back right now, and the exercises you're having trouble will be easier to learn.
I think with any method book, there are places where it seems to progress too quickly. Personally, I never teach from a method book alone -- I tend to supplement it with other exercises, short pieces, etc. along the way. It makes those jumps seem like little hops instead. 
Visit [url=http://www.monikadurbin.com/formiapress]Formia Press[/url] to check out my compositions and arrangements for flute and more.
I need to take lessons.MonikaFL wrote:I think with any method book, there are places where it seems to progress too quickly. Personally, I never teach from a method book alone -- I tend to supplement it with other exercises, short pieces, etc. along the way. It makes those jumps seem like little hops instead.
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flutepicc06
- Posts: 1353
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:34 pm
That's always a good idea.sinebar wrote:I need to take lessons.MonikaFL wrote:I think with any method book, there are places where it seems to progress too quickly. Personally, I never teach from a method book alone -- I tend to supplement it with other exercises, short pieces, etc. along the way. It makes those jumps seem like little hops instead.
The Gray Hairs Speak
I tried to take up the piano 20 years ago with a teacher. I approached it from the perspective that I had already graduated from college, had never had any prior contact with music, and could treat it as a crude sort of hobby. Nothing about it need really matter to me, except having a little fun now and then with the music in the evening when I returned from work or on weekends.
No musical work was ever perfected. I worried about playing it fast as I'd heard it elsewhere, even with plenty of mistakes and long pauses to figure out note sequences. Adding another title to my "repertoire" (ha!) was another priority. Don't reproduce the ignorance of my younger years.
When you sit down at the classical concert and the flute soloist stands in front of the orchestra without a piece of sheet music to be seen and plays for the next half hour, do you think he got there by thinking: "Well, you know, I think I did that well enough." I doubt it. He (or she) got there by playing that work twelve hours a day worrying about whether their airstream should be a millimeter higher and if the vibrato they employed at some obscure point in the score should be a little more subdued. Think about that soloist when you make decisions regarding music.
I'll be playing this little excerpt from Bruch for the next twelve months if that's what it takes to make it sound the way that it should, because I know what happens when playing music as it is meant to be played is disregarded during practice. Speed doesn't matter at the beginning, just the sound of the notes and the relationship between them. (I find that sight reading is a major problem for perpetual beginners like myself.)
Music is, metaphorically, the Japanese Tea Ceremony. You don't just do it for a sip of tea at the end (or the ability to claim you play an instrument). You do it to perfect it and for the sake of doing it. You do it at a level at which you can accomplish that goal relative to the difficulty of the works that you attempt and the pace at which you play them. You do it that way because the emotional effect of doing it perfectly produces the reward that is most highly prized, not because of the praise of others, but because of the musical experience itself.
The psychological impact, for me, of sitting down at a piano and playing, ever so slowly, an excerpt from Max Bruch's "Violin Concerto in G" while imagining how one of my classical piano heros might play it creates such an emotional high for me that I keep at it. My prior approach, not worrying about anything but being able to claim I'd put another piece of music to bed, however messily, produced no emotional reward or sense of a deepening relationship with the instrument, and I gave it up in six months. When I stopped decades ago, the piano had become just another distraction in my life, not one of the things that truly mattered to me. My attitude at the start created that outcome. (My teacher at a little music shop on Colerain Avenue in Cincinnati, Ohio, an elderly gentleman, was fantastic. I wish I could still study under him.)
I suspect that your approach will determine how long you play the flute. For a few months, perhaps a year... or for a lifetime.
No musical work was ever perfected. I worried about playing it fast as I'd heard it elsewhere, even with plenty of mistakes and long pauses to figure out note sequences. Adding another title to my "repertoire" (ha!) was another priority. Don't reproduce the ignorance of my younger years.
When you sit down at the classical concert and the flute soloist stands in front of the orchestra without a piece of sheet music to be seen and plays for the next half hour, do you think he got there by thinking: "Well, you know, I think I did that well enough." I doubt it. He (or she) got there by playing that work twelve hours a day worrying about whether their airstream should be a millimeter higher and if the vibrato they employed at some obscure point in the score should be a little more subdued. Think about that soloist when you make decisions regarding music.
I'll be playing this little excerpt from Bruch for the next twelve months if that's what it takes to make it sound the way that it should, because I know what happens when playing music as it is meant to be played is disregarded during practice. Speed doesn't matter at the beginning, just the sound of the notes and the relationship between them. (I find that sight reading is a major problem for perpetual beginners like myself.)
Music is, metaphorically, the Japanese Tea Ceremony. You don't just do it for a sip of tea at the end (or the ability to claim you play an instrument). You do it to perfect it and for the sake of doing it. You do it at a level at which you can accomplish that goal relative to the difficulty of the works that you attempt and the pace at which you play them. You do it that way because the emotional effect of doing it perfectly produces the reward that is most highly prized, not because of the praise of others, but because of the musical experience itself.
The psychological impact, for me, of sitting down at a piano and playing, ever so slowly, an excerpt from Max Bruch's "Violin Concerto in G" while imagining how one of my classical piano heros might play it creates such an emotional high for me that I keep at it. My prior approach, not worrying about anything but being able to claim I'd put another piece of music to bed, however messily, produced no emotional reward or sense of a deepening relationship with the instrument, and I gave it up in six months. When I stopped decades ago, the piano had become just another distraction in my life, not one of the things that truly mattered to me. My attitude at the start created that outcome. (My teacher at a little music shop on Colerain Avenue in Cincinnati, Ohio, an elderly gentleman, was fantastic. I wish I could still study under him.)
I suspect that your approach will determine how long you play the flute. For a few months, perhaps a year... or for a lifetime.
Last edited by Jaded on Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Here is my .02USD
I think it is a good idea to develop a good warm up strategy. This is a routine that you will do everytime before practicing pieces. You will get more bang for the buck this way. Once you have mastered one warmup excercise, then go to the next one. I change warmup routines every couple of months. As time goes along, you will do more difficult warmups. If you do things this way, you will find harder pieces getting easier over time. Perfect the excercises, the rest will follow, but you have to be patient!
There is a martial art call Ti Chi. The "Chen" style is the fighting version. Unlike other martial arts, the postures are mastered slowly. I can tell you first hand, anything that you can do perfect at a slower speed, you will be able to do very fast. Being a large person(FAT), I once was ask to spar(practice fight) with a Tae Kwon Do student. This guy thought I was an easy target because I was fat, and all he saw was slow moves. This guy was good, but it only took me 2 postures for him to fall on the ground. I did not even take a hit, or break a sweat. I could do my moves so fast, it even impressed the Tae Kwon Do instructor! This experience taught me alot about how to practice.
One of the biggest down falls with alot of "classical only" players is the ability to be flexible. Anyone can practice a piece to perfection, even a beginner. Unfortunately, this same person will not be flexible enough to play anything else. I see this quite a bit with young musicians. Here is a good rule of thumb for practice.
IF YOU HAVE PRACTICED TO A POINT WHERE YOU ARE NOT MAKING ANY PROGRESS, IT IS TIME TO WALK AWAY FROM THAT PIECE AND WORK ON SOMETHING ELSE.
You would be surprised how well you will progress! When you come back to that piece(A couple of days later) you will notice a sizable improvement. Often times, our lack of ability to play a piece or a passage has nothing to do with the difficulty of the piece, but other external factors like muscles, fatigue, stress, etc......
Ok, so this advice was more like .50USD, I will just put it on your tab!
Phineas
I think it is a good idea to develop a good warm up strategy. This is a routine that you will do everytime before practicing pieces. You will get more bang for the buck this way. Once you have mastered one warmup excercise, then go to the next one. I change warmup routines every couple of months. As time goes along, you will do more difficult warmups. If you do things this way, you will find harder pieces getting easier over time. Perfect the excercises, the rest will follow, but you have to be patient!
There is a martial art call Ti Chi. The "Chen" style is the fighting version. Unlike other martial arts, the postures are mastered slowly. I can tell you first hand, anything that you can do perfect at a slower speed, you will be able to do very fast. Being a large person(FAT), I once was ask to spar(practice fight) with a Tae Kwon Do student. This guy thought I was an easy target because I was fat, and all he saw was slow moves. This guy was good, but it only took me 2 postures for him to fall on the ground. I did not even take a hit, or break a sweat. I could do my moves so fast, it even impressed the Tae Kwon Do instructor! This experience taught me alot about how to practice.
One of the biggest down falls with alot of "classical only" players is the ability to be flexible. Anyone can practice a piece to perfection, even a beginner. Unfortunately, this same person will not be flexible enough to play anything else. I see this quite a bit with young musicians. Here is a good rule of thumb for practice.
IF YOU HAVE PRACTICED TO A POINT WHERE YOU ARE NOT MAKING ANY PROGRESS, IT IS TIME TO WALK AWAY FROM THAT PIECE AND WORK ON SOMETHING ELSE.
You would be surprised how well you will progress! When you come back to that piece(A couple of days later) you will notice a sizable improvement. Often times, our lack of ability to play a piece or a passage has nothing to do with the difficulty of the piece, but other external factors like muscles, fatigue, stress, etc......
Ok, so this advice was more like .50USD, I will just put it on your tab!
Phineas
Practice
I beg to differ.Anyone can practice a piece to perfection, even a beginner.
There are many musical works that are beyond the capabilities of beginners, and even those within their grasp may be approached with too much preference for poorly conceived manipulation rather than focused study seeking insight from past performances and the composer's style. Classical music has well defined boundaries establishing limits with regard to manipulaton. Other genres, such as traditional music from various cultures, may take a somewhat different approach, but respect for tradition and, in terms of classical music, genius, is still there.
Irish traditional musicians know this, even as they add their ornamentation, they base their approach, their phrasing, upon past performances by recognized historical figures in the genre.
Learning the intent of the composer, studying various performances by past professionals or noted amateurs, and developing an approach that is not only correct, but meaningful to the individual, is the basis for my prior advice regarding "perfecting" a work, rather than simply banging something out and calling it a day, regardless of the result. A simple recording of one's work can provide quite a bit of insight a few days after one believes one has "perfected" a work, particulalry if you compare it to a professional performance that truly is "perfect".
Re: Practice
JadedJaded wrote:I beg to differ.Anyone can practice a piece to perfection, even a beginner.
There are many musical works that are beyond the capabilities of beginners, and even those within their grasp may be approached with too much preference for poorly conceived manipulation rather than focused study seeking insight from past performances and the composer's style. Classical music has well defined boundaries establishing limits with regard to manipulaton. Other genres, such as traditional music from various cultures, may take a somewhat different approach, but respect for tradition and, in terms of classical music, genius, is still there.
Irish traditional musicians know this, even as they add their ornamentation, they base their approach, their phrasing, upon past performances by recognized historical figures in the genre.
Learning the intent of the composer, studying various performances by past professionals or noted amateurs, and developing an approach that is not only correct, but meaningful to the individual, is the basis for my prior advice regarding "perfecting" a work, rather than simply banging something out and calling it a day, regardless of the result. A simple recording of one's work can provide quite a bit of insight a few days after one believes one has "perfected" a work, particulalry if you compare it to a professional performance that truly is "perfect".
You are intitled to your point of view, however it has been my experience that the only difference between a beginner and a professional learning a piece is just a matter of a point of skill level and reference. It may take a beginner a lot longer to perfect a piece, however the end result would eventually wind up the same. In essence, even professionals are striving for perfection, therefore were are all students.
I remember once going into a guitar center, and hearing a guitarest that was playing an Yngwie Malmsteen solo. Note for note, lick for lick. Even for some professional guitarists, this would be quite an accomplishment. Anyway, I just had to see who this person was. It was a 12 year old girl. I mean, you could close yours eyes and you are listening to Yngwie play. After further investigation, I was expecting a person that was musically versed. Turns out she had only played guitar for 2 years. She was facinated with this guitar solo, and practiced it on a daily basis every chance she could and used the CD as a reference as well as get assistance from her teacher. The 4 tunes she learned were the only tunes she could play. She could read music, but did not know anything about theory. This is just one of many examples of a beginner that became dedicated enough to master a piece of music.
This is not normal, but it can be done. If you are physically and mentally able, if you practice anything with consistency/dedication, you will eventually master it. This goes for anything in life.
Often genius is mistaken for just plain HARD WORK.
Phineas
Kudos for the young lady.
The young woman so loved the work that she wanted it to become part of her. The work must have truly resonated with her for her to put in the time to learn it in a manner that caused her to be held up as an example to others. In the process she must have developed the basic fingerstyle skills to accomplish the performance, and a good grasp of how to sight read and translate those skills into music.
She's twelve now. She has a repertoire of four very well played and rather difficult works, apparently from memory. How many adults can claim that same distinction on the guitar? In my own circle I can think of no one.
In time she may, if her instructors are talented, learn to make the works her own. For now, she has at least established a solid foundation with them.
We live in a television society because so few care enough about music to master it. The CD player is so much easier, and in terms of the satisfaction granted, so much emptier. It offers the sound of the notes, but not the resonance of the instrument, with the performer as part of that resonating instrument.
Don't misunderstand, improvisational styles are very appealing, particularly by piano greats in the jazz tradition, but there is so much depth in classical music that many prefer to remain within the bounds of the score simply for love of the musical styles of the great composers of the past. They enjoy the possibility of the subtle influence they can bring to the sound of a work by the volume with which a note is played or the level of tremolo employed at a particular point in it. (At the same time, who would deny "Fats" Waller's mastery of the piano and uniquely appealing style as another example of a contemporary piano great? He's one of my favorites.)
My point, fundamentally, is that if you fail to practice a work in a manner that indicates a dedication to realizing it not just as a piece of music, but as an extension of yourself, you are far less likely to reach a point at which you possess the mastery of an instrument at a level at which you will be satisfied and continue with it. I remember thinking, two decades ago: "Okay, I can play some music on the piano, but not very well. I don't get very much satisfaction from it. Why continue? I'd just as soon be watching television."
Now I play a work for days or weeks at a time, and forget about how many pieces I've learned. Professionals truly do practice for very long periods of time. (Older professionals have to practice even more just to maintain at a decent skill level due to physical deterioration.) Professionals may have larger repertoire's as a result, but that's proportional to the time they've spent with the instrument. If an average student or working person can only spend an hour a day or an hour a few times a week, they can expect proportionally fewer accomplishments with the instrument. That includes continuation to a level at which you can begin to manipulate the work compositionally or improvisationally and adapt to other playing styles.
She's twelve now. She has a repertoire of four very well played and rather difficult works, apparently from memory. How many adults can claim that same distinction on the guitar? In my own circle I can think of no one.
In time she may, if her instructors are talented, learn to make the works her own. For now, she has at least established a solid foundation with them.
We live in a television society because so few care enough about music to master it. The CD player is so much easier, and in terms of the satisfaction granted, so much emptier. It offers the sound of the notes, but not the resonance of the instrument, with the performer as part of that resonating instrument.
Don't misunderstand, improvisational styles are very appealing, particularly by piano greats in the jazz tradition, but there is so much depth in classical music that many prefer to remain within the bounds of the score simply for love of the musical styles of the great composers of the past. They enjoy the possibility of the subtle influence they can bring to the sound of a work by the volume with which a note is played or the level of tremolo employed at a particular point in it. (At the same time, who would deny "Fats" Waller's mastery of the piano and uniquely appealing style as another example of a contemporary piano great? He's one of my favorites.)
My point, fundamentally, is that if you fail to practice a work in a manner that indicates a dedication to realizing it not just as a piece of music, but as an extension of yourself, you are far less likely to reach a point at which you possess the mastery of an instrument at a level at which you will be satisfied and continue with it. I remember thinking, two decades ago: "Okay, I can play some music on the piano, but not very well. I don't get very much satisfaction from it. Why continue? I'd just as soon be watching television."
Now I play a work for days or weeks at a time, and forget about how many pieces I've learned. Professionals truly do practice for very long periods of time. (Older professionals have to practice even more just to maintain at a decent skill level due to physical deterioration.) Professionals may have larger repertoire's as a result, but that's proportional to the time they've spent with the instrument. If an average student or working person can only spend an hour a day or an hour a few times a week, they can expect proportionally fewer accomplishments with the instrument. That includes continuation to a level at which you can begin to manipulate the work compositionally or improvisationally and adapt to other playing styles.