Resistence

[xjonnySax]

I am a pro sax player. Interested in Jazz. I get the sound I want on sax. I am not into mouth pieces,
magic horns etc.

Recently I have been working on flute, Moyse, J Andersen, A good sound is a must with me.

A big problem with me on flute is " resistence" Reed insruments ,no problem.

When I get the sound I want on flute it seems like I am wasting air.
What to do?
I have a Sankyo Prima flute, headjoint that came with the flute.
I have been doing about an hour a day long tones, some etudes, very slow, striving for tone.
Also I am working on trombone, could that be hurting my flute chops?
Thanks,
John

[pied_piper]

For most reed players who double on flute, the biggest problem is the LACK of resistance on the flute. With sax or clarinet, the reed/mouthpiece combination have a natural resistance to the player's blowing. On the flute, the resistance is created with the player's lips. If the lip opening is too large, the airstream will not be focused and a lot of air is wasted. Try using a smaller lip opening when blowing and that should help conserve your air.

[Zevang]

Try using a smaller lip opening when blowing and that should help conserve your air.

Yes indeed!

I'd just add that it will be very good if you keep in mind that all the tension you must keep at the corners of your mouth when playing sax is completely worthless in the flute. The control comes from the center portion of your upper lip. Mouth corners and lower lip must be relaxed.

This is in my opinion the biggest difficulty doublers have.

[xjonnySax]

Thank U good advice I'm sure!!

[xjonnySax]

Tried to not use lower lip today. It was not easy but,
Wow, what a diff.

Thank you very much!
John

[jseligmann]

I started with flute a long time ago. I played it exclusively for twenty years. Mostly classical. Then I took up the sax, tenor and soprano. Played mostly the saxes, but always flute on the side for the next almost thirty years. It is through the saxophone that I learned about the importance of resistance in forming and controlling the airstream.

My 1980 Powell took almost no effort to make a sustained sound. I had no idea that resistance was even possible on the flute. But I was wrong. Yes, you can increase the sense of resistance somewhat with your embouchure, but, drum roll: some flutes/headjoints offer more resistance than others. Period. Somewhere around the 1970s, responding to professional flute players, many of the most prestigious flute manufacturers redesigned their flutes. Supposedly superior scales were introduced, and, more importantly, in terms of resistance, embouchure holes became straight-edge rectangular. Gone were the more oval embouchure holes, and gone, too, was resistance. This is not by chance; professional flutists wanted easy-blowing instruments... flutes that could speak loudly when needed, without too much effort.

My advice to you, xjonnySax, oh, fellow sax player, is this (it's what I did): go find yourself a 1950s or sixties Haynes Commercial flute and enjoy yourself. Of course, try a number of them to find the one that suits you best. Or, if money is tight, just buy any Yamaha 225 or 221 in excellent condition. Although somewhat less vibrant and refined in tone than the Haynes, "student" Yamahas offer very good resistance and a sweet tone along with a very well made flute.

OK, I'm ready to be contradicted all over the place here, but unless you play the sax you may not know the feel of resistance, the palpable give and take, the physical force-feedback, that is being referred to.

[pied_piper]

@jseligmann - As another "fellow sax player", my background and experience is somewhat opposite of yours. I started on sax, played it through high school and college as a music major. While in college I took up the flute and played mostly on student flutes like Artley, Armstrong, and Yamaha. For some 20+ years, I perceived myself as a sax player while doubling on flute. About 15 years ago, I became more serious about my flute playing and went in search of a better flute. I tried a number of brands and eventually settled on a Muramatsu. It had a more rectangular shaped embouchure and WOW - I loved it. It allowed me to do more with the flute such as improve the third and fourth octave and also to control to the color of the sound (i.e. dark or bright). I was never able to do that with the more oval shaped embouchures. My experience, both as a flute student and flute teacher, is that the oval shape is easier to start with, but to really grow and be able to control the sound at will, a more rectangular shape offers a lot of advantages. Yes, the rectangular shape requires more work and control from the player, but it offers a wider range of sounds. IMO, it all depends upon how much work the sax player puts into developing his/her flute abilities and sound. For the occasional player, the oval shape may be an advantage, but for the more serious player, the rectangular shape is probably better. And please note that the embochure shape is not exclusively oval or rectangular - there are many headjoints with embouchure shapes that fall between the two extremes. Plus, I have not yet mentioned other aspects of embouchure design such as undercutting, overcutting, riser height, and material (although scientific evidence seems to indicate that the material is irrelevant). Each player has to try a lot of different headjoints/flutes to find what works best for them.

[jseligmann]

Each player has to try a lot of different headjoints/flutes to find what works best for them.

Absolutely true.

My point was simply this: if one is looking for flutes/headjoints that offer more resistance than others, they can be found. The answer is not just in the player's embouchure.

I asked a number of individuals who sell and play flutes what they recommended for greater resistance. Coincidentally, along with earlier Haynes flutes, a number of them suggested the Muramatsu. And, yes, many emboucher variations, not just the shape of the hole, can come together to make for a more resistant playing experience, but such flutes/headjoints are available and are worth looking for.

[Phineas]

My point was simply this: if one is looking for flutes/headjoints that offer more resistance than others, they can be found. The answer is not just in the player's embouchure.

Being primarily a non-classical player, I can tell you it is not that simple. I run into doublers all of the time that have terrible technique and control. They can play just good enough to get what they want, and that is as far as they go. I had one recent student that fell into this category. He was good at executing sax fingerings while over blowing. Just by doing little things like adjusting the position of his headjoint/footjoint, simple changes in breathing technique, posture, and finger position, his playing and sound improved almost instantly.

I play(double) on saxophone. I have spent so much money on mouthpieces it not funny. I finally got with a good instructor(Just a couple of lessons!). Now I can sound decent on ANY reasonable mouthpiece. Same thing.

The biggest problem with doublers is they rarely take lessons on the "doubling instrument". The downside is constantly fighting pitfalls while playing.

Been there, lived that!

[jseligmann]

"... adjusting the position of his headjoint/footjoint, simple changes in breathing technique, posture, and finger position, his playing and sound improved almost instantly."

Phineas, yes, I did those things.

But, for me, there's an essential playing component: It's the way in which I interact with the airflow of the instrument. And some mouthpieces, flute or sax, suit me better for how I form and sense my air steam and the feedback I get from it. I feel it as resistance, a give and take of the moving air.

And it's not that I try out many combinations as some do (you, too ); I stick with a sax mouthpiece or flute for a very long time. I know how long it takes to get really familiar with the nuances of playing... to learn what can be done, as well as the limitations. As I develop, I find out more about what I'm looking for. When I first started both flute and sax, I had no idea what I was looking for. How could I? And I knew nothing about resistance at all, flute or sax.

As we age, we evolve; our muscles can do things they could never do before. Certain techniques are perfected. I play types of music now that I never even considered when I started. I've come to trust my instincts and natural proclivities more.

I learned from playing the sax (after 20 years of playing only the flute) that, for me, certain mouthpieces are intrinsically more resistant than others. Once I establish a resistance equilibrium, the sound, the tone, takes care of itself. And now, thanks to the my experience on sax (especially soprano), the same holds true for the flute.... work within the resistance, and the flute will sing. And again, for me, certain flutes, head joints, are better, easier, at resistance than others.

[Phineas]

I learned from playing the sax (after 20 years of playing only the flute) that, for me, certain mouthpieces are intrinsically more resistant than others. Once I establish a resistance equilibrium, the sound, the tone, takes care of itself. And now, thanks to the my experience on sax (especially soprano), the same holds true for the flute.... work within the resistance, and the flute will sing. And again, for me, certain flutes, head joints, are better, easier, at resistance than others.

Well, my comment was not meant to be personal towards you. Just a general statement reacting to what you were saying. I do not disagree with what you are saying to a point. There are always going to be instruments a person prefers over another. However, headjoint/mouthpieces does not fix everything. Regardless of how an instrument reacts, you still have to be a decent player to take advantage of a good instrument. At the same time, a player with a good foundation can get a decent sound out of any playable instrument.

By the way, Soprano, C Soprano, and Sopranino are my favorite and best saxes to play.

Its all good!

Phineas

[jseligmann]

Yes, as you say "headjoint/mouthpieces does not fix everything."
Of course, it is only the beginning.
But, for me, I couldn't get to the beginning until I learned a lot by playing