Not One but TWO new flutes?

[fluteguy18]

Another thing to consider, is that most handmade flutes don't play better right out of the box. The caliber of instrument is so high that you have to learn how to play it. A top notch player would understand that.

[Phineas]

I know I am a little late to this thread...but here is my 2cents anyways.

I played on a Sankyo Silver Sonic for 10 years and just bought a Powell. Changing mechanism was a big process (not to mention I went from inline to offset and got a C# trill key). It took several weeks/months of intense technical practice to adapt. I am a fan of the idea of one flute, several heads for that reason exactly. To be really precise and 'know' your flute, you have to stick with that mechanism.

I also agree, if looking between two $2500 flutes or one $5000, I would go with the $5000 or even a $4K with a new head. Reasoning, for $2500 you most likely aren't in the hand made range. When you jump up to $5000, you can get 'some' flutes in that range that are handmade. I settled for my Sankyo years ago to also buy a wooden piccolo. I should have looked more. I love my Sankyo, but an extra $2000 would have put me into a whole different breed of flutes.

There are some educated folks on this forum, I would really think about their advice. Most of us have played for many a years. We have made several silly decisions and try to pass on knowledge to others. Again, just my 2 cents.

I totally agree with your reasoning. I had a chance to get a Muramatsu when I bought my Miyazawa, but did not get it because of the headjoint. About a year later, I got a chance to keep a friend's Muramatsu, and wish I would have gotten it. Oh well.

I do not know about anyone else, but cost justification is the main motivation for my spending limit on musical instruments. If I were playing full time, I could justify investing in a higher end flute. Since I do not, I just had to get the best flute I could get for the money I was willing to spend. It took me almost 3 years to make back the money I put into my Miyazawa. If I were a full time player like Fluteguy18, I would think/invest differently.

Phineas

[pied_piper]

... If I were playing full time, I could justify investing in a higher end flute. ...

Unfortunately, it's also often true that unless you are among the top professionals playing full time (in lieu of a more lucrative career), you probably couldn't justify/afford higher end instruments.

I know many pro and amateur flutists around my area and I find it ironic that while the pros have nice high end silver flutes, several of the amateurs own top of the line 14K gold flutes.

[beelady]

Another thing to consider, is that most handmade flutes don't play better right out of the box. The caliber of instrument is so high that you have to learn how to play it. A top notch player would understand that.

Interesting. Granted I've never played a high end handmade flute, knowing right now I would not be able to afford one. But I'm curious as to what you would need to over come when playing a high end flute. Shouldn't you be able to play a more expensive instrument more easily?

With pianos it is this way.

Furthermore, couldn't you be a top notch player, but not have experienced a high end instrument? Not saying that I'm top notch or anything.

Also, after thinking about it and reading everyones comments, playing the Elegante, then playing the Yamaha, I am more than likely going to send back the Elegante. It is silly to have two flutes in the same price range I suppose, and really the Yamaha to me is superior.

If the Yamaha had all the bells and whistles (pardon the pun) that the Elegante has, it would be closer to an 8K instrument. Maybe that is why is sounds better than the Elegante.

[Phineas]

Shouldn't you be able to play a more expensive instrument more easily?

Not in the flute realm for some strange reason. Mainly due to the utilization of added features, and the cuts of the headjoints. I have found that every higher end flute I ever tried required practice time to get a good sound out of it. The other thing that you have to get use to is the response of the mechanism. You would be surprised how much just a slight difference in key response(springy-ness), scale, or key position will cause havoc on your speed and playability. Sort of like going from a Ford Tempo to a Lamborghini.

Furthermore, couldn't you be a top notch player, but not have experienced a high end instrument? Not saying that I'm top notch or anything.

Most players that I consider top notch do not own high end 8k+ flutes. Out of the few that do, most of them got a deal on one that was used.

If the Yamaha had all the bells and whistles (pardon the pun) that the Elegante has, it would be closer to an 8K instrument. Maybe that is why is sounds better than the Elegante.

Here is an example of what I was talking about in the first response. I have owned a Yamaha before, and familiar with the Elegante. The EC head joint on the Yamaha is a lot more forgiving out the box than the Forze head joint on the Elegante. I can get WAY more dynamic response our of the Forze. However, if you do not have good control of your embouchure, the Forze will give you a run for the money. It is not the most difficult headjoint I have tried. However, it will take some practice to be good on it. Hence Fluteguy's statement. Top players spend a lot of time and money developing a combination that will perform the best, even if the combination is a challenge to play out of the box.

Personally, when I shop for a flute, I try to find the happy medium. A flute that is playable, but yet designed to take me to the next level.

Phineas

[c_otter]

When I started looking at handmade flutes, what I immediately noticed was that the high precision mechanisms allowed me to play faster. I had always assumed that it was just a lack of practice.

In regards to the headjoint, it definitely can be compared to changing from a basic car to a high end sports car (not that I've ever driven one). The headjoints can offer a lot more flexibility, but also require a lot more control.

When I upgraded to a handmade flute, I had a good sound from the beginning, but I had a lot of room to grow. I've had the flute for about a year and last month I found an extra level of power in the low register. The new flute can just do things that my old intermediate level flute can't. (Or as least with me playing it.)

A master is going to sound good on pipe metal. However, flute is very competitive. When two top notch players of similar ability are competing, a better flute can definitely make difference.

[beelady]

Here is an example of what I was talking about in the first response. I have owned a Yamaha before, and familiar with the Elegante. The EC head joint on the Yamaha is a lot more forgiving out the box than the Forze head joint on the Elegante. I can get WAY more dynamic response our of the Forze. However, if you do not have good control of your embouchure, the Forze will give you a run for the money. It is not the most difficult headjoint I have tried. However, it will take some practice to be good on it. Hence Fluteguy's statement. Top players spend a lot of time and money developing a combination that will perform the best, even if the combination is a challenge to play out of the box.

Wow! interesting. Yet, confused again. Are you saying then that the Elegante with the Forze headjoint is a "better" flute because it does take a little more effort to achieve the tone you want? Verus the Yamaha?

Again, the Yamaha w/ the ec headjoint is so much easier to play. But the Elegante is more fun because I have to work at it a bit more. What should I do?

Should I keep the flute that takes more effort to play, at least more effort right now?

What's really interesting is, I'll be playing the elegante and achieving a pretty good tone, then I switch to the Yamaha and it is so easy to play and sounds so clear.

[Phineas]

Wow! interesting. Yet, confused again. Are you saying then that the Elegante with the Forze headjoint is a "better" flute because it does take a little more effort to achieve the tone you want? Verus the Yamaha?

Again, the Yamaha w/ the ec headjoint is so much easier to play. But the Elegante is more fun because I have to work at it a bit more. What should I do?

Should I keep the flute that takes more effort to play, at least more effort right now?

What's really interesting is, I'll be playing the elegante and achieving a pretty good tone, then I switch to the Yamaha and it is so easy to play and sounds so clear.

I can only speak for me. When I try out a higher end flute, I give myself enough time to get a good demo out of it. I also record myself to see how I sound on it. I also check to see if the headjoint has the desired resitence. If a headjoint is difficult, but has good potential, then I will consider it. For example, one of the tests I do on a headjoint is check the controllable volume range. How fast can I go from soft to loud in the least amount of time, and without sounding airy. This range on the Yamaha is decent, but did not have the range of the Forze. Things like how easy is it to do a different levels/speeds of vibrato. Do slight changes in pitch, etc....

I have a couple of tunes/pieces that I use to test out faster passages so I can see how the flute fits my hands. Ergonomics, and response are keys to buying a flute.

IMHO, the Elegante had a faster smoother response than the Yamaha. Although, I could EASILY live with the Yamaha

In the end, you have to buy the flute that is right for you. If the Yamaha is what you are looking for, then buy it. Anything that you read about buying flutes is strictly for consideration only.

Phineas

[beelady]

Okay. Thanks for the reply Phineas and otter.

I apologize in advance if I'm being somewhat annoying. But I have yet another question: If a flute is easy to play, like the Yamaha is for me, does that mean I need to upgrade? I feel what I can do with the Yamaha right now is about the extent of really what I could do with it ever, when it comes to color and dynamics. I mean it's there, and I'm there with this instrument.
Which is someways boring, because I do not have to work at it.

Does it sound like I need a higher end instrument?

I have not spent a whole week, for example, playing JUST the Elegante. Should I do that after my performance this Saturday (where I will be playing the Yamaha), before I decide to send it back or not?

EDIT: I have to say that with my Gemeinhardt, I definately have to work at no cracks between pitches, and the mid-range is shallow and I have to work hard at projecting this instrument in the mid-range. But I manage to get a very nice tone out of this flute. The mechanism is sluggish though and consequently not very responsive, all in all I definately compensate to play this instrument well.

I assume this "working hard" at a higher end instrument is different than "working hard" at a lower end instrument.

[Arianna]

Personally, I feel like you can outgrow a flute. I feel like I became limited by my Sankyo. The mechanism was getting clunky and I couldn't get as much out of it as I once felt that I could (therefore, I grew in playing...it didn't diminish). However, that was after 10 years of both high level college playing and then professional playing and teaching. I mean, the poor flute probably gets played for between 2-6 hours daily.
However, if you feel like these flutes are fun and you 'sound better' and amazing...you probably will have a ways to go before outgrowing them. It really just depends on how long and what level you play. I personally like the feel of 'growth' in a flute. I don't want to get bored with it anytime soon....as they are investments. I like to see what I can do with dynamics, articulation, tone...different styles of music (personally, I love Baroque and Modern...I need a flexible flute). And then I make a decision based on a flute that I feel comfortable with along with something that can amuse me and challenge me...and most importantly I feel like I can 'grow into'.

[Phineas]

Okay. Thanks for the reply Phineas and otter.

I apologize in advance if I'm being somewhat annoying. But I have yet another question: If a flute is easy to play, like the Yamaha is for me, does that mean I need to upgrade? I feel what I can do with the Yamaha right now is about the extent of really what I could do with it ever, when it comes to color and dynamics. I mean it's there, and I'm there with this instrument.
Which is someways boring, because I do not have to work at it.

Does it sound like I need a higher end instrument?

Only you can be the judge of that.

Every one of the people making comments has been through the whole "shopping around" thing for flutes. In the end, some of us are fortunate enough to find a good match for our playing skills. It takes time and money to get to that point. Unfortunately for you, it is your turn to spend the time and the money.

I would not make a big deal out of this. If you like the Yamaha, buy it. There is a high likelihood that it will not be that last flute you will ever buy. Most players go through many different brands, models, and headjoints before settling on something. At the price point you are exploring, there are lots of good choices. You just have to pick one. Just do not be closed minded because a flute is not "EASY" to play. Frankly, a good player can learn to play ANY quality flute well over time. Some just feel more comfortable than others.

Lastly, do not rule out the headjoint option. If you like how the Yamaha feels, you can always upgrade the headjoint later.

Phineas

[beelady]

Thanks again Phineas and Arianna.

You're right Phineas, I'm just beginning my journey now.

I will keep the Yamaha because it sounds so sweet. Everyone that hears it likes it the best. I still have time to keep the Elegante before sending it back. After tomorrow's performance I will play/practice exclusively on the Elegante for a week and then I'll see how I feel about it. I will then make my final decision.

Thanks all for your comments and advice!

Happy flute playing, Melissa

[beelady]

Sorry guys.... I couldn't resist. I tried the Elegante on a fast passage of a piece I will be playing tomorrow, to see how I like the mechanism as compared to the Yamaha. It is MUCH smoother and I can play the passage more easily.

So... last question (I think): If I was to get the ec headjoint fitted on the Pearl would it sound like how the ec headjoint does on the Yamaha? I'm not saying I will be doing this, but I'm curious.

[Phineas]

Sorry guys.... I couldn't resist. I tried the Elegante on a fast passage of a piece I will be playing tomorrow, to see how I like the mechanism as compared to the Yamaha. It is MUCH smoother and I can play the passage more easily.

So... last question (I think): If I was to get the ec headjoint fitted on the Pearl would it sound like how the ec headjoint does on the Yamaha? I'm not saying I will be doing this, but I'm curious.

Probably not, but it would be quite similar. It would definite give you the playability that you seem to be looking for. Who knows, you may like the sound of the EC on the Elegante better than on the Yamaha. You never know....LMAO

Here is an interesting article about someone who did just that. They were stuck between the Yamaha and the Pearl. Wound up getting the Pearl, and an EC headjoint for it.

http://www.8notes.com/f/25_242809.asp

Tell me what you think?

Phineas