Can you buy too advanced a flute for a young girl?

[TWerner]

Hi ianeandflute,

Based on everything I've read here, several things stop me from agreeing with you.

First, her flute will be going to school every day. I expect it will get dropped, bumped, dinged, etc. If she decides to try marching band, that will be doubly true. For $200, I won't really care if she destroys it in 3 years, but I don't think she will. Besides, from what I've read, the Pearl 505 has a nice scale and and easy headpiece and should be a fine beginner flute.

Money wise, your math is wrong. Lets say her second flute cost $4000. I spent $200 on the Pearl, assuming it is in good shape.

$3800 at 3% interest compounded annually for 3 years = $4152. 3% is pretty conservative, so if a parent simply invests the $3800 they save now, they'll probably be spending less buying two flutes, one at $200 now, and a second at $4000 in 3 years.

Lastly, in three years, kids grow a lot. They'll be bigger with a different jaw and different dentition. With the help of a good teacher, wouldn't the player be able to try out the more advanced flutes with their three years of skill and their "new face shape", and maybe choose one that fits them better? I don't know if that's a huge issue, but based on how personal flute decisions seem, choosing your more advanced flute when you know how to play a little seems like a plus.

I told Phineas I listen, and I do, which is why I responded with the above. I can afford any flute she wants (although I can't afford a lear jet for her to practice on). I do respect your very educated opinion that students benefit from fine instruments. But I think more advanced may not be better for my daughter. No worries about scratches or dings means she'll toss it in the picnic basket or take it to her friends house and play there. Easy to play means fun. More fun and less worry means she'll practice more, and that's what is really important thing to me.

Respectfully,
Todd

[lianeandflute]

phineas:

please don't take what i said personally! it's only my opinion based on my own experience and watching those around me. i'm only 18, so i'm not the most experienced flute player in the world and haven't seen every flute student that ever existed. everyone is different anyway.

i think i would have learnt 3 times faster had i had a good flute at the beginning stages. my flute really held me back as i wasn't getting the results i wanted (i had a very clear, focused idea of what i wanted to do with flute which was simply unachievable on the one i had and when i finally got a sankyo intermediate i suddenly started improving rapidly, but by this stage hated flute and was almost ready to give up!! luck luck luck).

the girl i know, of course she would have worked hard for that head joint, and of course she had an AMAZING teacher, but she didn't have to work even harder on a head joint that didn't work properly. i started out on a terrible flute and it took 10 years to unlearn a whole bunch a bad habits. some related to bad teaching, some related to overworking on a flute that doesn't reward. btw, i find muramatsu head joints beautiful and easy to work with and very rewarding.

and at the risk of sounding like a terrible future parent, i would probably make sure my child stuck flute out long enough to really use that flute so that it wouldn't be a waste and so that they were able to do something worthwhile with it without struggling as much as they could. but who knows. i am at least 10 years away from even having a baby!

TWerner:

i think pearls are great flutes, i always recommend them to my own students because you get very good quality for the price.
and i understand what you are saying about it being taken to school etc. totally makes sense!

i understand what you're saying about all the maths, although it's not really what concerns me in the end. the investment is in the quality of flute. i could go through a whole maths thing again that would prove my point as well but what's the point? although i'm not sure how one can get a good $200 flute… i know you found one on ebay but that is rare (and risky ). here in australia it would be $600 - $1000 new.

yes body's change and you are right… that's why i would (ME, not telling you what to do) go for the EX to start with and then choose something more to suit you when you are more advanced (going for a professional model) and know what you are doing. intermediates are still only intermediates and kids at that level are still not always going to know what they are going for. different for everyone, again.

look, i come from a school of flute playing where you get the best flute you can as early as you can. and also one where you don't change the flute to suit you, you learn to suit the flute (to an extent) - and by this i mean not adding key extensions and a hose pipe around the barrel and all this stuff. so my opinion is biased and also based on flute players who are very focused, planning to go far and not take their flute everywhere as a child but keep it safe at home and take very good care of it (out of respect for the instrument). it's a specific school of thought and for the most part i agree as i have seen results but please don't think i believe it's the only way.

i guess i was just trying to add food for thought but i am glad i got some more discussion going. makes me think!

[Phineas]

phineas:

please don't take what i said personally!

I didnt. Also, this is not the first time this sort of thing has pulled me into a debate. Especially since I play mostly non-classical music, and came from the poor side of town.(the hood)

i think i would have learnt 3 times faster had i had a good flute at the beginning stages. my flute really held me back as i wasn't getting the results i wanted (i had a very clear, focused idea of what i wanted to do with flute which was simply unachievable on the one i had and when i finally got a sankyo intermediate i suddenly started improving rapidly, but by this stage hated flute and was almost ready to give up!! luck luck luck).

Perhaps. However, if you would have gotten the Sankyo and it was not maintained, or properly setup, you would have had just as much trouble. Also keep in mind that you could already play some when you upgraded, That does not qualify you as a beginner. Lastly, the Sankyo headjoint is WAY more tame than a Muramatsu.

The biggest mistake I see with beginning flute players is how they handle/maintain their instruments. Anytime someone local asks me if they should upgrade their flute, the first thing I do is send them to a good repair technician. 90% of the time, this fixed their issues. Often there are a couple of bad pads, loose hardware, bent hardware, etc.... Even "Professional" models can suffer from the same issues.

I will take practice, and good instrumental care over "flute dollars" any day of the week. Everything else is a preference.

Its all good!

[TWerner]

i know you found one on ebay but that is rare (and risky ). here in australia it would be $600 - $1000 new.

E-bay might be risky here too. I'll let you know, but I think I probably got very lucky with someone who decided to price her nearly new 505 for a fast sale. We'll see. New order from a store it would have cost me $400, and from a local store, $600, so you aren't that far off on the price. Still, if you invest a few grand for a few years, the math generally works out in favor of doing it my way. Opportunity cost. . .

I figure an easy headjoint will be a benefit for a few years on her second instrument. She's likely still going to concentrate on Piano, and while I didn't buy her the "best piano", either, I did get her/us a really nice one that should never hold her back.

My favorite piano, and the one I think is generally among the "best", is a 7' Bosendorfer. I looked at it, and it's around $90,000. I don't recall what the M&H cost, but less than half that much, mid 30's maybe? We do ok, but we're not rich, and to me, $90k was a huge amount of money for a piano. So I bought the M&H. It was my second favorite piano, although I really only favor the M&H tone over the Bose on simpler pieces. Of course, that means right now, I think what my daughter plays sounds better on a M&H than it sounds on a Bose.

I love music and if you haven't figured it out yet, I adore musical instruments. Musical instruments are my favorite form of non-performance art, so please don't think I was completely in disagreement with recommending the nicest hand made flute someone can afford. Even after the advice I got here directed me towards the student flutes, I still asked my daughter if she wanted a slightly fancier flute, figuring it might mean something to her that we got her a silver one instead of a plated one. Same headpiece from what I could tell. She said no, in very certain terms. She wanted something she wouldn't have to worry about. That clinched it for the plated Pearl.

Best,
Todd

[pied_piper]

Todd,
I think you've made some sensible choices. When a teenager first learns to drive, they don't start out with a Ferrari because they are not experienced enough to handle that power. It's similar with a flute; I firmly believe that a student model is appropriate for a beginner.

My first flute was a used student model Artley - not a great flute, but it served me well enough to learn on. Several years later, I got a used Armstrong Model 80, again, not a top-of-the-line flute, but it was sterling silver and a step up from the Artley. I played that one for many years. Later when I became more serious about my flute playing (I'm a doubler, sax and clarinet too), I finally upgraded to my current flute, a sterling Muramatsu. A couple years ago, I picked up a used Pearl 501 (the predecessor to the 505) from eBay at a really good price. That is now my backup instrument that I use when I'm playing gigs in places where I don't want to use my Muramatsu. While it's not the same caliber as my Muramatsu, it's a really nice flute and IMO, it blows away comparably priced flutes. I think your daughter will have a very nice (and appropriate) instrument to learn on. Since you bought it on eBay though, I would suggest having it checked over by a repair technician just to be sure it's in tip-top shape.

[TWerner]

Thanks Pied_Piper,
When she starts to drive, I'd like to get her a tank. Slow, and safe, LOL. I don't think they get good milage though.
I'm curious. When you play the Pearl flute, do you use a more advanced headjoint on it than the one my daughter will use? Also, being more advanced than a beginner, did you get one with open holes, or did you not care about that?

[pied_piper]

On my Muramatsu, I use a Williams 14K gold headjoint, but the Pearl just has the stock headjoint that came with it. The Pearl 501 headjoint is not as flexible for advanced playing, but it is still a good one.

[cflutist]

TW,

Like Pied Piper, I also play a 14K rose gold Williams Headjoint. When I had Brannen make my new 14K rose gold flute last year, I had the barrel of that flute made to fit my existing headjoint. This allows me to use the same headjoint for both my Brannen and my Haynes (my backup flute). I also have a Gemmy flute that I take camping as both the Brannen and Haynes are too nice to take outdoors.

I also started on a student Armstrong flute, then progressed to a Selmer all silver open hole flute, then the Haynes, and now the Brannen.

[TWerner]

I had to search for Brannen Brothers and then images. They look very beautiful. I love that they make heirloom quality flutes.

[lianeandflute]

phineas:

sorry, misunderstood what you wrote! reading it again it makes sense.
maybe the sankyo headjoint is easier to use than the muramatsu for some. as i said before, i never had any issues with the muramatsu headoint, the only problem i had was with the weight of the instrument (going from c foot and silver plated body to solid silver, heavy walled and 2 extra keys!). i'd like to add that my point wasn't so much about buying a muramatsu specifically though, it was more about getting the best quality flute you can (at an appropriate level) as soon as you can. i do go on a bit about muras though because i love them!!

i acknowledge and agree about the flute being taken care of. i had forgotten that most kids don't think about things like that and unintentionally treat their flutes a little roughly. like i said before, i come from a school of fluteplaying/thought of taking your instrument very seriously. it was just a way we were taught to think until we started thinking about that kind of thing by ourselves (by us i mean my teacher's students). so i kind of take it for granted that it's going to be taken care of.

TWerner:

i hope you purchase does work out. it looks good so all the best! pearls are really good quality, especially for the price.

i get what you're saying. and i don't disagree with getting a descent student model, i just wanted to sort of add an opinion that was a bit different to breed some thought

if you remember i initially recommended the pearl anyway! haha

[TWerner]

Guessing nobody has a clue what that last post is about or who it is directed to
I've never seen spam on a message board before, but I wouldn't PM!

[lianeandflute]

er… i'm assuming you're talking about a spam post that was then deleted and not my post? haha

[TWerner]

Yes, the SPAM post, not yours. I'd never seen one before. Didn't realized it would get deleted by the board or I wouldn't have mentioned it.

[pied_piper]

Classitar and Phineas are moderators and they take care of deleting spam posts.

Whenever I encounter a spam posting, I click the Report button to notify them.
See the icon in the lower right corner of each message.

[TWerner]

So my hat's off to USPS. They got the flute to me in 2 days regular first class mail.

My $212 purchase seems to have worked out. It looks nearly new. There's some dust and such under the bar that the keys attach to, and you can see fingerprints and all, but it's in great shape. On the headjoint, left side of the lip part, there's a 1mm hairline imperfection along it's edge where you can see through the finish, but it isn't near the part your lips go and there's a larger flaw in the plating under the lip riser part, maybe 1mm square that looks like it came from the factory. It's been played with a little I think, but not much.

I'll clean/polish it with a cloth and q-tips, and give it to her tomorrow. The seller didn't include the cleaning kit, so I'll order one on ebay or amazon unless there's some very loved seller on the board I should buy from.

Thanks,
Todd