PVC Flutes

[Jaded]

Does anyone know anything about PVC flutes? There's one for sale now on E-bay. It's not that expensive.

Are they "real" flutes? (It says its an "Irish flute".) Is it playable in the second register? How do they sound?

Thanks.

[pied_piper]

If you Google "PVC Flute" you will find a number of different plans online - some free, some for sale, some kits, too. They are not hard to make. You can buy PVC at any home supply store and it's inexpensive. 3/4" PVC usually comes in 10ft lengths and usually costs less than $5. Only common tools are needed: Hacksaw (or PVC tubing cutter), electric drill, drill bits in various sizes, some small Xacto knives for scraping and fine tuning the holes. Depending on the design that you choose, you need a cap or cork to close the headjoint end.

I've built a few (mistakes are cheap!) and they sound like almost any other simple flute made of wood or bamboo. The second octave plays very much like any flute. The main thing to realize is that a simple flute like this does not play all of the chromatic notes unless you start using half-hole fingerings. They work fine if you play simple tunes in the key of D or G. Other keys are more of a challenge.

Regarding the eBay ad, if they call it an Irish flute, that may be a bit of a misnomer, but it would finger similarly.

[Jaded]

I seem to be stuck with these diatonic flutes. I can't seem to get above the top line of the treble clef with them. (I can get above the top line with fipple flutes - whistles - just not with standard flutes.) Makes it a little hard to play Irish music, particularly given the delay due to the struggle.

[pied_piper]

It sounds like you might be having difficulty focusing your air stream. The second octave requires you to make a slightly smaller opening with your lips and to blow the air stream a bit faster (not harder, faster).

Do you have a teacher? If not, it would help to have someone who can show you by example. There are some excellent instructional videos on YouTube. Look for videos from Nina Perlove, James Galway, and Jennifer Cluff.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 1650188F35
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=fluteloophost

[Jaded]

This guy (James Galway) always impressed me. Saw him in concert in Oxford, Ohio many years ago after a two hour drive there and back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pob8OTZUcvk

Lots of good pointers for us keyless, simple system fluters.

1. Practice scales beginning with: G major, C major, and F major. These are easy with a simple system flute in G major. (Use alternate fingering on 2nd and 3rd holes from top for F instead of F# of G major scale to produce C major scale. Half hole with piper grip on 3rd hole from bottom to produce F scale with Bb note.) (Or you could just buy a lot of simple system bamboo flutes in all the right keys!)

He provides some interesting patterns that turn mind numbing scales into something that sounds musical. Perhaps a good way to start transitioning from playing all keyless, simple system flutes as if they were D major scale to chromatic playing.

I wonder if alternating between piper's grip and half holing on individual holes with fingertips is a good way to produce a conditioned/practiced approach to chromatic notes. Never tried it before. Always (for about a year now on a D major scale whistle) played in the traditional manner with D major scale music.

I had been experimenting with bringing my lips closer to the far edge of the embouchure hole to reach second register this evening. I found out afterwards this is called "rolling in". I did it to put more concentrated, higher speed air near the point where the air column vibration is set up. It seems that using my tongue to partially stop the embouchure is the best way to accelerate air flow (per Nina Perlove).

I may need to sharpen that flute embouchure far edge just a bit for better second register effect with my needle file. Don't know for sure. Never finished an embouchure hole before. Just roughed them out.

Looks like these could be great videos.

[pied_piper]

You might find these articles useful too...
http://www.jennifercluff.com/articles.htm

[Jaded]

I'm settling into the conclusion that these KEYLESS simple system flutes, whether made of jade or PVC, are playable over about an octave plus two notes. Above that, there's either a mysterious flute player's technique involved in getting the note, or it's simply not realistic. (I'll leave the dark musical arts to the pro's .)

I'm not a tiny person, and even putting out a lot of air, I can't push them above an octave plus two notes whether I've made the embouchure hole or someone in China has done so. (I even adjusted the embouchure holes on the PVC flutes I just built to get a nice, sharp edge, and lowered the approach to the forehole of the embouchure hole on one of them to force more air over the far lip (which changed the tone of the flute slightly, but not how high it would go). The grooving of the approach does make the flute a little easier to play, without so much need to blow downward.

[flutepicc06]

I'm settling into the conclusion that these simple system flutes, whether made of jade or PVC, are playable over about an octave plus two notes.

If I'm not mistaken, these flutes are your first venture into transverse instruments, right? Up until now, you'd been playing fipple flutes?

If this is accurate, odds are you simply haven't figured out how to use your embouchure/air to reliably produce the 2nd octave. This is a problem for many beginners, whether on simple flutes like the Dizis you've got, or modern Boehm style instruments. Give it a bit more time, and experiment a bit more, and you'll probably find you can get the 2nd octave out. I started on Boehm flute, and moved into more exotic instruments, and have no problem playing the full range on these simpler instruments. The technique is a bit different, but it's entirely possible.

[Jaded]

I'm no expert on simple system flutes. The second register may be quite accessible with an expertly crafted embouchure hole made of the right material and great skill.

(I recall reading somewhere that large bore, simple system, keyless flutes, such as these, tend to be octave limited. If you try to build up the pressure level to drive the note higher, the wide bore simply enables the air to spill down the tube sideways. If you can't elevate the pressure level across the embouchure edge adequately, you can't elevate the resonant frequency, and you can't go up the scale beyond a limit. In my experience, the notes rapidly drop off in volume as I ascend above an octave, so that spillage seems a likely factor. I don't have that problem with a low whistle, so I presume it has something to do with blowing across a relatively large hole to build up pressure with my dizi's and the PVC flutes I just made, rather than down the bore across a relatively small hole, as with a whistle.)

I based my embouchure holes on the dizi model. The stone embouchure holes are certainly rigid, but I get the same response with the PVC Irish flutes in the key of G major that I just manufactured. I had to file the edge of the hole a little sharper to get the extra note or two. It may be a matter of reducing the width of the embouchure hole. I get the same response with the dizi's. I've read that wide bore flutes tend to be octave limited. (I suppose I could order a bamboo, transverse flute to test that, but I'd probably get the same result, given that it's either me or the flute.)

I have my doubts about technique being likely to change this. I put quite a bit of air across the edge of the embouchure hole in a little kamikaze flute playing exercise just to test the limits that I could reach. I even tongued the individual notes to produce great puffs of air while "leaning in" to varying degree. What I got, beyond an octave plus two, was the sound of air passing over the embouchure hole.

I plan to create some simple, one octave tunes, perhaps some Christmas carols, and just enjoy the instruments, rather than try to force myself to limits that are well beyond my expectations for a musical return on the related frustration and high level of physical exertion. (In my experience, the base octave is better accepted in inhabited parts of the earth.) Too bad, because with just an octave, Irish "trad" isn't in the mix. Fortunately, I've got whistles, but their piercing, second register qualities make it hard to find places where people care much for their sound when playing music that tends to cling to the boundary between the first and second register. (That's why I got the low D whistle.)

[Jaded]

sorry...

[bluespiderweb]

Hi Folks, new here-I'm a transfer from Chiff & Fipple, the Irish music forums and a keyless flute player of 3 years now, who's just found out how much fun a Boehm flute can be!

Anyway, Jaded, if you are looking for a PVC flute that is well made, I can only recommend one, as it is a fine musical instrument that you can play through the second octave and sometimes beyond if you have the chops.

His name is Robert Doug Tipple (Doug Tipple on Chiff), and he has been making these for years now (he's semi-retired) and makes them at very low cost for the time he puts in and the quality you get out of his skills. They are no frills, but very well crafted, finished and expertly tuned. I started playing flute on one, as many who wish to start on Irish keyless flutes do.

Here's his website:

http://dougsflutes.googlepages.com/home


And you can do a search on Chiff and Fipple flute forum for Tipple, and you will read all about them here:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewforum.php?f=2

By the way, they are quite different from the small diameter Boehm flute-large diameter for a D flute (most common in Irish music), and the holes are fairly large and wide spread. Small hands have trouble, but you can either get offset holes, or a higher key flute to solve that. Robert is a great guy, and is always glad to help you find what will work for you. His website is also a wealt of information, to help you sort out the choices, and playing help also.

I'd recommend getting some before he really retires! I have no financial gain in recommending them-they're just great flutes!

[Jaded]

I have searched through "The Session" and "Chiff and Fipple" sites for information. Mr. Tipple lives about an hour and a half south of me in Indy. I've corresponded with him via e-mail based upon the recommendations I found at those web sites. (I sent him a thank you note for the information that made it possible to build my flutes and an mp3 of a piece of music I wrote and performed on my PVC flute a few weeks ago after I got it to the point where I could play it.)

My PVC key of G major flutes are working. I can't get the top E note of the second register without blocking at least one of the bottom three holes of the flute to increase back pressure. (Blocking all three bottom holes helps the most for that top note.) It's a little different when you're used to a whistle's finger placement for the B note of a D major scale whistle, and takes some coordination. (I don't plan on attempting the third register of these flutes. I'll just use D major fingering for the notes of the scale and play on a relative basis. I may try the chromatic shift later with half holing rather than opting for a Boehm flute. I understand that Chinese traditional musicians commonly do this with their dizi's, as well as some Irish traditional musicians, both groups I admire.)

I've had to make some adjustments to the embouchure holes (first time I've made them, and I've got no flute for reference purposes). I've also had to figure out how to hold my lips to get the PVC flutes to make a sound without "spilling" a lot of air and wasting it. These are pretty loud flutes! Embouchure isn't rocket science, but you can't play a flute without some attention to it and an effort to develop it so that you can effectively play. Those whistles tend to spoil you!

Mr. Tipple's flutes are highly regarded, and cost around $50.00. (Quite a deal.) I admire his willingness to make his flutes so affordable. There may come a time when I purchase one of Mr. Tipples flutes, if for no other reason than as a means of acquiring a basis for a study of the embouchure hole. The fact that he makes them here in Indiana is another appealing factor. (I wonder if I could get him to put a maker's mark on one in case it winds up on "The Antique Road Show"...)

If I make another flute, I'll probably stick with the key of G major, but shift down to a half inch inner diameter flute next time, to increase back pressure and help me into the top of the second octave. I'm pretty satisfied with the flutes I built. I took a lesson to see someone with an embouchure recently, and learned a bit by watching him play his Boehm system flute. He suggested I try some alternate fingering to get to the top of the second octave, which I've attempted based upon the premise of finding a way to increase back pressure.


For now I've got a jade dizi with some tape over the buzzing hole with which I can get to the top of the second octave fairly easily (probably due to the relatively small inner diamter). The only problem is that the scale is off. (You can play it by itself and it sounds okay in terms of the note spacing.)

I'd purchased another (lantian) jade dizi with a lower base note, and am now slowly adjusting its scale with some needle files per Mr. Tipple's advice on his web site. I went through a lot of jade just to get to an approximation of the D major scale to which it is supposed to be tuned for the three notes after the base note. (It's not easy filing stone.) It's interesting to note that the one jade dizi is made in the traditional Chinese scale, in D major with the base note as the 3rd note up, while the other Chinese dizi, probably made for trade purposes, tries for D major starting with D, but was so far off in terms of its scale that I just about retired it upon trying it out because of the relative spacing of the notes. (It was hard to make a tune sound right even without the need to be in tune with other instruments.) I've still got a lot of filing to do... Mr. Tipple makes dizi flutes as well!

(I put some recordings of the jade dizi and the PVC flute under the "exotic flutes" post on this site and this heading.)

Thank you for the recommendation!

[flutepicc06]

These are pretty loud flutes! Embouchure isn't rocket science....

Well, maybe not rocket science, but it is an art, and it takes years of study and practice to master it!

[Jaded]

Ah...Thanks! At two weeks plus that means I've still got a viable excuse! Now I can sit back and just enjoy the flutes.

[Jaded]

Making a PVC flute isn't that hard if you have one of the on-line tools that permits you to identify how large to make the holes and where to space them. It gets a lot easier if you have a means of clamping the flutes to a workbench and a power drill with a device that will hold it vertically, otherwise the drill bits walk across the top of the flute.

The harder part is figuring out the fingering used to get to the top of the second register with a large bore flute. I posted something on this under another heading here.