Hi, i'm an hsc student in sydney, Australia. For my design and technology major project i'm making a flute mute. Not like a brass mute that changes the timbre, but something to make a flute quieter, e.g. if you in an apartment or want to practice at night etc. I've done some prototypes with a few different designs, inc. ring/pipe shape inserts and casings for the headjoint, all out of various densities of foam.
If anyone has any suggestions, ideas, relevant information in regards to anything to do with this project that would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to ask any questions as well.
I'll try and upload some pictures as well if i can.
Thanks
Flute mute
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
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fluteguy18
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pied_piper
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Hmm. Don't try this at home, but I would think that injecting some expanding spray foam into the headjoint would be a rather effective mute, albeit a permanent one...fluteguy18 wrote:Given the nature of how sound is produced on the flute, I'm not so sure that a flute mute is even possible.
Oh, wait. You said a flute mute, not a mute flute - nevermind...Seriously though, The University of New South Wales has done quite a bit of research into the acoustics of musical instruments. In their "FAQ in music acoustics", they describe two ways to "mute" a flute. http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/musFAQ.html
I've never tried their methods, but I suspect that both will affect intonation, response, and playability in a negative manner.Can you make a flute mute? Is there a way I can practise in the middle of the night without disturbing the whole house and at the same time learning how to play notes and music?
Two ways. Put a small piece of cotton wool in the headjoint. This works well on the low range, but less well at the high pitches where you will wake the neighbours. Alternatively, put a piece of modelling clay on the edge of the embouchure hole, just opposite where you blow.
It seems to me that what Theodore is describing, while it could perhaps be described as a mute, it would be more accurately classified as a sound reducing practice system (according to his description). I view it as something more akin to this saxophone practice system (which I feel is inaccurately labeled a mute).
http://www.amazon.com/Esax-Practice-Alt ... B001VO26LA
In my mind, a true mute is a device that can be used both in practice and in performance. Composers specify in music when to use a mute - most notably with strings or brass. I don't see a device such as the above being written in by composers or used in performance.
So, Theodore, the easy part of your project is creating a device that can be attached or inserted into a flute to reduce the sound. The hard part is to create something that is relatively small, easy to attach or remove, and most important of all, it can't affect the intonation, response, or playbility of the flute. If you can achieve that, you have created a mute.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--
IMO, the only way to build a real "flute mute" is to have it integrated into the headjoint.
For example, the flute maker Kotato has a headjoint design with a membrane that can be muted (muting the membrane, not the flute!) so as to be able to produce sounds akin to the Chinese DiZi at will. These headjoints must be custom ordered, custom fitted, custom...
So one idea is to increase the wall losses somewhere in the headjoint to "kill off" as much energy as you can. As pied_piper said, "some expanding spray foam in the headjoint". Of course, foam isn't an option. I propose that you create a whole bunch of membranes that radiate energy off. In the event that you want to play normally, mute those membranes.
Another idea is to create blow-edge alterations, perhaps in the form of insertible lip plates or clip-on blow-edges. The problem is, it may not work in certain pitch ranges, or destroy certain resonances altogether. A variant of such a design is to create a "wall" right in front of the lip plate. The principle behind this is... tricky, so I'll leave it out. You can also reduce the volume in the "chimney", perhaps by an insert or something.
One more way is to create key extensions that droop over the edge of the key. Since the large tone holes are one of the reasons why the flute plays so loudly at times, reducing the effective venting would reduce the volume. Of course, problem again, intonation will be so severly affected that it would behave like those horn stop mutes that don't have pitch correction designs. Other than that, it'd take a while to attach all those extensions...
Hope this help. If any of these work, tell me!
kz
For example, the flute maker Kotato has a headjoint design with a membrane that can be muted (muting the membrane, not the flute!) so as to be able to produce sounds akin to the Chinese DiZi at will. These headjoints must be custom ordered, custom fitted, custom...
So one idea is to increase the wall losses somewhere in the headjoint to "kill off" as much energy as you can. As pied_piper said, "some expanding spray foam in the headjoint". Of course, foam isn't an option. I propose that you create a whole bunch of membranes that radiate energy off. In the event that you want to play normally, mute those membranes.
Another idea is to create blow-edge alterations, perhaps in the form of insertible lip plates or clip-on blow-edges. The problem is, it may not work in certain pitch ranges, or destroy certain resonances altogether. A variant of such a design is to create a "wall" right in front of the lip plate. The principle behind this is... tricky, so I'll leave it out. You can also reduce the volume in the "chimney", perhaps by an insert or something.
One more way is to create key extensions that droop over the edge of the key. Since the large tone holes are one of the reasons why the flute plays so loudly at times, reducing the effective venting would reduce the volume. Of course, problem again, intonation will be so severly affected that it would behave like those horn stop mutes that don't have pitch correction designs. Other than that, it'd take a while to attach all those extensions...
Hope this help. If any of these work, tell me!
kz
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.
thanks guys.
classitar,
how would i use light-weight fabrics? what are some light-weight fabrics? wrapping it around the head joint?
pied_piper,
you're right; i am really making a "sound-reducing practice system". It's not intended to be used in performances.
I will look into the UNSW ideas, as well, thanks.
wkzh,
what do you mean when you say increasing "the wall losses somewhere in the headjoint to "kill off" as much energy as you can"? Also, what would I use for membranes? would they be doing the aforementioned job? Also, i think the "wall" idea would flatten the pitch incredibly, but i'll try. What's the chimney? I will try your ideas, thanks.
any/everyone,
would anyone be able to give me a concise and precise answer to the question: how does the flute produce sound? and where does most of the sound come out?
that information would be greatly appreciated.
thanks.
classitar,
how would i use light-weight fabrics? what are some light-weight fabrics? wrapping it around the head joint?
pied_piper,
you're right; i am really making a "sound-reducing practice system". It's not intended to be used in performances.
I will look into the UNSW ideas, as well, thanks.
wkzh,
what do you mean when you say increasing "the wall losses somewhere in the headjoint to "kill off" as much energy as you can"? Also, what would I use for membranes? would they be doing the aforementioned job? Also, i think the "wall" idea would flatten the pitch incredibly, but i'll try. What's the chimney? I will try your ideas, thanks.
any/everyone,
would anyone be able to give me a concise and precise answer to the question: how does the flute produce sound? and where does most of the sound come out?
that information would be greatly appreciated.
thanks.
"wall losses" meaning make the surface of the head joint wall so rough that the turbulence will just eat off the sound energy.
Membranes for radiating energy away as well, but with the possibility of muting the membranes.
The "wall" would not flatten the pitch too badly, since it is quite a distance away from the blow edge. However, you will need to have a hole in the wall for air to pass through. So far I think this is the most promising idea. I've tried making a make shift "wall with a hole" before, but I forgot the results of that experiment.
The chimney is the short length of tube between the head joint tube and the lip plate. The smaller the volume of air in the chimney, the less loud it is. So if you put an insert into the chimney to reduce the volume air, you should get a drop in loudness. However, you will definitely play much much flatter.
And in answer to your to-everybody-question, go Google "flute acoustics" and you should find enough information. The sound comes out from whatever hole there is in the flute, so no point wrapping the headjoint on the outside.
But in response to that, if you play the flute with a heavy piece of cloth covering both hands and the flute, you'll play a little softer, but at the cost of going flat.
Membranes for radiating energy away as well, but with the possibility of muting the membranes.
The "wall" would not flatten the pitch too badly, since it is quite a distance away from the blow edge. However, you will need to have a hole in the wall for air to pass through. So far I think this is the most promising idea. I've tried making a make shift "wall with a hole" before, but I forgot the results of that experiment.
The chimney is the short length of tube between the head joint tube and the lip plate. The smaller the volume of air in the chimney, the less loud it is. So if you put an insert into the chimney to reduce the volume air, you should get a drop in loudness. However, you will definitely play much much flatter.
And in answer to your to-everybody-question, go Google "flute acoustics" and you should find enough information. The sound comes out from whatever hole there is in the flute, so no point wrapping the headjoint on the outside.
But in response to that, if you play the flute with a heavy piece of cloth covering both hands and the flute, you'll play a little softer, but at the cost of going flat.
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.
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fluteguy18
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I disagree with this. If this were true then you would place a microphone at the end of the flute when recording or using an amplifying system. My teacher makes a living doing studio recordings in Los Angeles, and when he is in the studio, the microphone is always put at the headjoint. When doing so, it creates equal data in both channels (recording is usually done in stereo). If the microphone were placed at the end of the flute, it would create more data in one channel than the other.wkzh wrote:" The sound comes out from whatever hole there is in the flute, so no point wrapping the headjoint on the outside.
So, I think that sound is created at the headjoint, and pitch is determined by the holes that are open/closed.
If I were working on this project, I would consider devising some sort of thick foam sleeve to put on the headjoint and barrel of the flute. It would need to cling snugly, and would need to be soft enough to absorb vibrations. I would leave the lip plate uncovered. And I would make it at least 1 inch thick.
Another thing I would consider would be a very thin foam with a temporary adhesive on one side. I would make it to be a veneer to put on the lip plate (blowing edge especially).
But, because of the nature of sound production on the flute, I genuinely don't think this is a viable project. Any method that would involve doing something to the riser or lip plate would ultimately change the design of the instrument and thereby alter the WAY/METHOD it plays (not meaning the sound it would produce). Furthermore, such a device would ultimately pose a threat to the instrument itself because it could cause damage. Even the slightest scratch on the blowing edge, lip plate on the blowing edge, or riser can cause irreparable damage to the instrument.
I think (pretty confidend) that it's not possible to make a really efficient mute for a flute.
Although, acoustically speaking, I read somewhere I can't recall right now that most of the sound produced by a flute "comes out" from the headjoint in a region between the embouchure hole and the flute tenon.
In this regard, I would experiment with air conditioning foam, that is in a form of tube, and should fit outside a headjoint without much risks to the instrument.
The other way, already told here, is experiment building some different kind of headjoint (the whole peace).
Although, acoustically speaking, I read somewhere I can't recall right now that most of the sound produced by a flute "comes out" from the headjoint in a region between the embouchure hole and the flute tenon.
In this regard, I would experiment with air conditioning foam, that is in a form of tube, and should fit outside a headjoint without much risks to the instrument.
The other way, already told here, is experiment building some different kind of headjoint (the whole peace).
fluteguy18, try playing your flute with your hand wrapped around the headjoint. Note, the headjoint has a hole too! I said "whatever hole", not "whatever tone hole". The embouchure hole is also considered a hole, and a large portion of the sound is radiated from there. Try extending your lip beyond your usual. Firstly, you will go flat due a sort of "lengthening" of the air column, and secondly you will be reducing the amount of sound radiation. I know of a piccolo player who played really really soft because she lipped over so much. I generally leave a large portion of the piccolo embouchure hole open, so I am known to be a loud player. (At the expense of pulling out the head because this "unlipping" makes me sharp!) Sound radiation from the wall is much less significant than sound radiation from the holes. That's why shaded fingerings can't be played as loud as "standard" fingerings.
If you studied a bit about flute history, you will find that one of the reasons why our modern flute is so much louder than the older conical flutes was because the tone holes are much larger, about fivefold. Boehm changed the conical bore to the cylindrical bore because the cylindrical bore allowed larger tone holes to be bored at the lower end of the flute to boost the low notes.
And Zevang, IMHO, the amount of sound absorbed by some foam outside just the head is too insignificant. As I said, try playing with your hand wrapped around the headjoint. Even if this DID reduce the sound by a whole bunch, the end of the tube will still radiate sound like nobody's business, so it would be effectively, almost just as loud.
For all to note, if wall radiation DID contribute to a large amount of the sound, then brass mutes would be ineffective. Also note, that since it is the air that is moving, then it would be logical that a vast majority of the sound travels parallel to the direction of air displacement. If wall radiation were a major factor, then we'll all play really soft because the energy of the driving wave would be transferred to the walls before a standing wave can be set up. This is true for wood flutes: the rougher surface of wood "eats up" some of that energy, lending a softer, sweeter sound. Correct my physics if I'm wrong, I didn't study for my exams XP
I think it is most important to see what you are aiming for in this project, Theodore. If you are aiming of allowing a flautist to practice finger dexterity in silence, that there is no need for a mute because all flautists already know how to practice finger dexterity (and tongue dexterity) in nearly complete silence.
On the other hand, if your intention is to allow the flautist to use the same air he/she would use for normal playing, but with much lesser volume, then you have two options: reduce radiated energy, or reduce input efficiency. The former is achieved by wrapping up the WHOLE instrument, not very practical for a light instrument like the flute, I guess. To a sax? Oh, it's just another few kg... nothing the neck strap can't handle. The latter, I would say, is a better deal. That's what strings do: the mute absorbs some of the vibration of the string before it is transferred and radiated by the body.
In agreement with fluteguy18, yes, the playing technique will be significantly altered. For example, brass players use practice mutes not just to make themselves softer, but also to train their air support because playing with a mute needs much more force to squeeze a sound out. So unless you're willing to make such a trade-off, then this project is pretty pointless. Nonetheless, I think some people will still appreciate such an invention, e.g. wanting to practice late at night, so no other choice. I think the scratching problem can be alleviated with good engineering and good care, so that's a smaller issue.
If you studied a bit about flute history, you will find that one of the reasons why our modern flute is so much louder than the older conical flutes was because the tone holes are much larger, about fivefold. Boehm changed the conical bore to the cylindrical bore because the cylindrical bore allowed larger tone holes to be bored at the lower end of the flute to boost the low notes.
And Zevang, IMHO, the amount of sound absorbed by some foam outside just the head is too insignificant. As I said, try playing with your hand wrapped around the headjoint. Even if this DID reduce the sound by a whole bunch, the end of the tube will still radiate sound like nobody's business, so it would be effectively, almost just as loud.
For all to note, if wall radiation DID contribute to a large amount of the sound, then brass mutes would be ineffective. Also note, that since it is the air that is moving, then it would be logical that a vast majority of the sound travels parallel to the direction of air displacement. If wall radiation were a major factor, then we'll all play really soft because the energy of the driving wave would be transferred to the walls before a standing wave can be set up. This is true for wood flutes: the rougher surface of wood "eats up" some of that energy, lending a softer, sweeter sound. Correct my physics if I'm wrong, I didn't study for my exams XP
I think it is most important to see what you are aiming for in this project, Theodore. If you are aiming of allowing a flautist to practice finger dexterity in silence, that there is no need for a mute because all flautists already know how to practice finger dexterity (and tongue dexterity) in nearly complete silence.
On the other hand, if your intention is to allow the flautist to use the same air he/she would use for normal playing, but with much lesser volume, then you have two options: reduce radiated energy, or reduce input efficiency. The former is achieved by wrapping up the WHOLE instrument, not very practical for a light instrument like the flute, I guess. To a sax? Oh, it's just another few kg... nothing the neck strap can't handle. The latter, I would say, is a better deal. That's what strings do: the mute absorbs some of the vibration of the string before it is transferred and radiated by the body.
In agreement with fluteguy18, yes, the playing technique will be significantly altered. For example, brass players use practice mutes not just to make themselves softer, but also to train their air support because playing with a mute needs much more force to squeeze a sound out. So unless you're willing to make such a trade-off, then this project is pretty pointless. Nonetheless, I think some people will still appreciate such an invention, e.g. wanting to practice late at night, so no other choice. I think the scratching problem can be alleviated with good engineering and good care, so that's a smaller issue.
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
I am well aware of how to play with a stuffy tone and poor intonation. I simply choose not to. And that last little bit I disagree with. I use 'shaded' (non-standard you mean?) fingerings ALL the time and can play them with as much projection as 'standard' fingerings. In fact, using them allows the player to have control over pitch and tone quality than merely using 'standard' fingerings. And as for sound radiation... I'm not going to argue there. Just try convincing my teacher of that after about 700 film scores under his belt. (I assume you mean toneholes when you say 'holes'). If it were better to put a microphone by the keys, then it would be done as a standard practice, but it's not.wkzh wrote:fluteguy18: Try extending your lip beyond your usual. Firstly, you will go flat due a sort of "lengthening" of the air column, and secondly you will be reducing the amount of sound radiation. (At the expense of pulling out the head because this "unlipping" makes me sharp!) Sound radiation from the wall is much less significant than sound radiation from the holes. That's why shaded fingerings can't be played as loud as "standard" fingerings.
I'm not going to reply to this thread anymore. I honestly feel that it is a waste of time. To the O.P.: Good luck!
fluteguy18, I understand what you're trying to get at. You are looking at it from a performers' point of view: duh, who would like a stuffy tone with poor intonation. But there are more things than just the amount of embouchure hole covering that affects your intonation and tone: vocal tract resonances, for example.
When I say shaded, I dont mean non-standard. I use plenty of non-standard fingerings as well. They may shade the tone, or brighten it up. Again, I am only considering one factor here. Take the two following examples:
F#2 : T, X X X | O O X | Eb
F#2' : T, X X X | O X O | Eb
Under most circumstances, you wouldn't choose F#2' over F#2 because F#2' doesn't project as well as F#2. This is an example of a non-standard fingering that "shades" the tone.
D2 : T, O X X | X X X |
D2' : T, O X X | X X X | gizmo
Try it, you will notice D2' is a little brighter in tone than D2. That's because closing the C tone hole enhances the resonance of certain partials of the tone. Other examples of other "brighter" non-standard fingerings:
A3 : T, O X O | X O O | C#
C4 : O, X X X G# | X O O | gizmo (normally considered standard)
E1 : T, X X X | X X O | Eb C# (not sure, I think it does)
I believe all players should use non-standard fingerings that improve the quality of music. And by non-standard I do not mean shaded, and vice versa. I am quite apalled that most players today do not execute such non-standard fingerings because "they aren't in the book." Of course, nowadays, they are.
And as for microphone placement, I'm not an expert. But I'm pretty sure that to put a microphone by the keys isn't a good idea, because you'll need one microphone by each key in such a case, and that still doesn't get you a good sample. Don't forget the clicking sounds! I guess that's why they put it at the head: the sound radiates from the embouchure hole too, and to minimise the effect of less consistent sound radiation from the toneholes. And the closing a key beyond the "optimum point" doesn't just reduce radiation, it may even enhance resonance or a whole myraid of possibilities.
Being a top grade archer doesn't mean you know to properly describe arrow ballistics. Being the world's best flautist doesn't mean you know how to tailor the headjoint taper to favour a certain style of playing. That's why you're a flute player and not a flute maker, or an acoustician, or a sound technician. I'm pretty sure you don't know how they designed the acoustics of the recording studio. Do you know how a microphone works?
This post my seem irrelevant, but I hope it clears any misunderstandings here.
When I say shaded, I dont mean non-standard. I use plenty of non-standard fingerings as well. They may shade the tone, or brighten it up. Again, I am only considering one factor here. Take the two following examples:
F#2 : T, X X X | O O X | Eb
F#2' : T, X X X | O X O | Eb
Under most circumstances, you wouldn't choose F#2' over F#2 because F#2' doesn't project as well as F#2. This is an example of a non-standard fingering that "shades" the tone.
D2 : T, O X X | X X X |
D2' : T, O X X | X X X | gizmo
Try it, you will notice D2' is a little brighter in tone than D2. That's because closing the C tone hole enhances the resonance of certain partials of the tone. Other examples of other "brighter" non-standard fingerings:
A3 : T, O X O | X O O | C#
C4 : O, X X X G# | X O O | gizmo (normally considered standard)
E1 : T, X X X | X X O | Eb C# (not sure, I think it does)
I believe all players should use non-standard fingerings that improve the quality of music. And by non-standard I do not mean shaded, and vice versa. I am quite apalled that most players today do not execute such non-standard fingerings because "they aren't in the book." Of course, nowadays, they are.
And as for microphone placement, I'm not an expert. But I'm pretty sure that to put a microphone by the keys isn't a good idea, because you'll need one microphone by each key in such a case, and that still doesn't get you a good sample. Don't forget the clicking sounds! I guess that's why they put it at the head: the sound radiates from the embouchure hole too, and to minimise the effect of less consistent sound radiation from the toneholes. And the closing a key beyond the "optimum point" doesn't just reduce radiation, it may even enhance resonance or a whole myraid of possibilities.
Being a top grade archer doesn't mean you know to properly describe arrow ballistics. Being the world's best flautist doesn't mean you know how to tailor the headjoint taper to favour a certain style of playing. That's why you're a flute player and not a flute maker, or an acoustician, or a sound technician. I'm pretty sure you don't know how they designed the acoustics of the recording studio. Do you know how a microphone works?
This post my seem irrelevant, but I hope it clears any misunderstandings here.
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.
Re:
Training air support on brass is mostly done by playing long notes, diminuendos, crescendos and so on. "Practice" and "warm-up" mutes for brass drastically decrease the sound output and are best avoided, unless circumstances do not permit normal (open horn) playing.wkzh wrote:(snip)
For example, brass players use practice mutes not just to make themselves softer, but also to train their air support because playing with a mute needs much more force to squeeze a sound out. So unless you're willing to make such a trade-off, then this project is pretty pointless. Nonetheless, I think some people will still appreciate such an invention, e.g. wanting to practice late at night, so no other choice. I think the scratching problem can be alleviated with good engineering and good care, so that's a smaller issue.
I guess squeezing a sound is a no-no regardless which instrument is played, brass or woodwind.
etc-etc: I didn't mean "squeeze out a sound" as in "squeeze embouchure to squeeze out a sound" but more of "a sound sounds squeezed" kinda "squeezed out" kinda "squeezed out". And actually about using mutes to practice... I only know a handful of players that do that, so I don't mean it's a standard practicing method.
The flute family: probing the lower limit of human hearing and the upper limit of human tolerance.
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allyoursdancer
Re: Flute mute
After searching for quite a long time about "HOW TO MUTE A FLUTE" this is the best I have found-
Can you make a flute mute? Is there a way I can practise in the middle of the night without disturbing the whole house and at the same time learning how to play notes and music?
Two ways. Put a small piece of cotton wool in the headjoint. This works well on the low range, but less well at the high pitches where you will wake the neighbours. Alternatively, put a piece of modelling clay on the edge of the embouchure hole, just opposite where you blow.
Try the cotton (in mouth piece hole) as mentioned for lower notes & modeling clay (SOMEWHAT FRESH CLAY- Put at end of flute) for the higher notes.
HOPE THIS HELPS!!!
Can you make a flute mute? Is there a way I can practise in the middle of the night without disturbing the whole house and at the same time learning how to play notes and music?
Two ways. Put a small piece of cotton wool in the headjoint. This works well on the low range, but less well at the high pitches where you will wake the neighbours. Alternatively, put a piece of modelling clay on the edge of the embouchure hole, just opposite where you blow.
Try the cotton (in mouth piece hole) as mentioned for lower notes & modeling clay (SOMEWHAT FRESH CLAY- Put at end of flute) for the higher notes.
HOPE THIS HELPS!!!