Can you buy too advanced a flute for a young girl?

[TWerner]

Hi,
First post here. I've been reading a lot lately because I am going to buy my 11 year old daughter a flute. I need to tell you about her so I can ask my question. She chose band as her elective in school next year, and liked the flute best of the instruments. (Piano isn't an option) Band is a daily elective, so she will play quite a bit, and she loves music. I'm not worried she'll quit any time soon, but she's small, probably 4' 4" or 4' 5" tall, and that's what concerns me.

Looking at used flutes, it seems like Yamaha commands the best prices. The used 221 or the older 225 flutes cost about the same as a Jupiter flute which has a silver head piece, open holes, and a B-foot.

The open holes can be plugged easily enough, but the B foot will always weigh a little more, so even though I assume an intermediate silver jupiter is a better flute than a plated yamaha, is it a worse flute for an 11 year old beginner? Her fingers are actually fairly strong after 5 or 6 years of piano which she plays daily, and I know we're not talking about a Tuba here, but will she have a much easier time playing the shorter beginner level flute?

Thanks,
Todd

I edited the title to include "young girl" since there were 9 views and nobody answered. Figured it'd save some of you from opening the thread to learn what I'm asking about. Best regards, Todd.

[TWerner]

Uh oh, 18 views and no advice.

Maybe I asked an unanswerable. I swear I searched and didn't find an answer. I found that better flutes are better, and a B foot may not be a great thing for a young girl.

So how about I ask it this way. If you had an 11 year old musical kid who was going to play a lot, and could get a Yamaha 211 or a Jupiter 611 with a B foot and open holes for around the same price, which would you chose for her?

Thanks,
Todd

[Phineas]

Hi,
First post here. I've been reading a lot lately because I am going to buy my 11 year old daughter a flute. I need to tell you about her so I can ask my question. She chose band as her elective in school next year, and liked the flute best of the instruments. (Piano isn't an option) Band is a daily elective, so she will play quite a bit, and she loves music. I'm not worried she'll quit any time soon, but she's small, probably 4' 4" or 4' 5" tall, and that's what concerns me.

Looking at used flutes, it seems like Yamaha commands the best prices. The used 221 or the older 225 flutes cost about the same as a Jupiter flute which has a silver head piece, open holes, and a B-foot.

The open holes can be plugged easily enough, but the B foot will always weigh a little more, so even though I assume an intermediate silver jupiter is a better flute than a plated yamaha, is it a worse flute for an 11 year old beginner? Her fingers are actually fairly strong after 5 or 6 years of piano which she plays daily, and I know we're not talking about a Tuba here, but will she have a much easier time playing the shorter beginner level flute?

Thanks,
Todd

I edited the title to include "young girl" since there were 9 views and nobody answered. Figured it'd save some of you from opening the thread to learn what I'm asking about. Best regards, Todd.

There is no such thing as a "Beginner" flute based on features alone. I have a hand made flute that has closed holes, and a C foot. The main thing that will make a difference for a beginner is the headjoint. Otherwise, for beginners, it really does not matter what features the flute has. Anything over time will be grown into as any beginner progresses.

As far as responses, you will rarely get immediate responses if ever. Just have to be patient.

Welcome to the board!

Phineas

[fluttiegurl]

As a teacher, I love it when a student starts on a good intermediate flute. In most cases, those students tend to stick it out longer and it seems to be a better investment for the parents. As for the B foot, it depends on the kid. I have seen kids as young as 8 play with a B foot and have not issues. As long as they are taught to hold the flute properly, and they are not overly small, there should not be an issue.

Now, I would caution you in assuming the Yamaha with more features is a better flute. In many cases, this is not always true. Personally, I have found that Yamaha's in general are better flutes than Jupiters. Others may have had different experiences, but the Jupiter intermediate flutes I have come in contact with have not impressed me that much.

[fluteguy18]

This is sort of a two edged sword. Generally you don't find a big difference in quality between what is typically described a 'beginner' flute and an 'intermediate' flute. You sometimes see the difference in key styling, plating options, and base material. All in all though, the flutes are very much the same. You see the big difference when you start getting into a 'high intermediate' level flute that will be a sort of 'hybrid' flute. It will have a handcut headjoint and a machine made body. Once you get there and start going higher, the differences in quality are astounding. So in some ways the flutes you are describing aren't that different from one another.

In other ways though there are definite things to consider in favor of a student model for a beginner. They're generally sturdier and can take a beating without too much wear and tear (which is something to consider with even the most cautious of youngsters). The way the headjoints are made in student models also lend themselves to being more... forgiving. The 'intermediate' models start having different 'cuts' available (like the Gemeinhardt J1/J2 etc), that are still limiting when compared to handmade headjoints but still require a bit more control and finesse to produce a good result.

But that isn't always the case either. Certain companies just produce instruments that are good up and down the line and do a flat out good job. Their pricing and designs are always catered to certain age and ability demographics. So the answer to your question is honestly messy and unclear. I'll just share my experiences.

I like playing on Jupiters to an extent. I just don't know how long they would hold up. A Yamaha will last through the Apocalypse. Pearl Flutes also produces a fantastic 'student' model flute that I wouldn't mind having as a backup to my 'pro' level flute. If I were you, I would invest in a really REALLY solid 'student' flute (like a Yamaha or Pearl), then look into trading it in/selling it to put it towards a higher end flute later down the road. These 'Student' models can sometimes even come with the 'intermediate' features you're seeing in the Jupiter. Then if she gets more serious a few years down the road you can bypass the whole 'intermediate' flute and jump to a 'hybrid' (handmade head, machine made body), or even to a low end 'pro' flute. That (to me at least) seems to be a more financially safe route for a parent. If she doesn't stick with it, then you won't have wasted a lot of money. If she sticks with it then you can sell or trade in the student model for a really nice 'step up/hybrid' flute. Then if she gets REALLY REALLY REALLY serious about it then an investment in a pro flute would be necessary and her 'step up' could serve as a backup for her main flute.

[pied_piper]

Adding a bit to what fluteguy18 wrote, there are pros and cons to starting a beginner on a more advanced flute. As a flutist who is also a former middle school band director starting beginning students, I would lean more toward starting her on a student-level instrument. Student flutes tend to have a headjoint design that makes it easier for a beginner to easily make a good sound and feel good about what they hear. Intermediate-level flutes will tend to have a more advanced headjoint design which allows a player more flexibility, but that flexibility can be a detriment to a beginner. Start her on a student instrument and if she progresses quickly, you can always trade-up to a better flute after a year or two. Its far more important to ensure that the flute is always in good playing condition. If you buy a used instrument, be sure to have it checked and adjusted by a good flute technician both when you buy it and then at least once each year or more often if she suddenly experiences difficulty playing some notes. Annual checkups apply to new flutes, too. At her age, even the most careful young students can bump their flute and slightly bend a key, dislodge a spring, or tear a pad. Any of those can make it difficult or even impossible for the student to play and she may become discouraged. So, in my opinion, it's better to inflict such damage on a lower cost instrument. Again, when she is more accustomed to playing and caring for an instrument, upgrade to a better one.

[TWerner]

Very educational.

It sounds like I should buy her a Pearl 505 or 501, or a Yamaha 221 or 225. I have access through her school to super reasonable repair/refurbishing, so I could easily get her a Jupiter 711 on ebay and have it restored to nearly new for the same price as a nice Yamaha 221, but a lot of you sound like you would recommend the Yamaha over the Jupiter based on it having an easier head piece.

I tend to buy better than needed. I'm blessed to be in a situation where the amounts we're talking about aren't a big deal to me. I actually bought the kids a grand piano to learn on because I like them, so a flute is not a financial stressor. On the flip side, my daughter won't care one way or the other and I want to get what is best for her, so while I love the toys, she loves the music, and if it will be better for her, I'll shop for one of the beginner models.

Thank you all for the advice,
Todd (who really liked how the Jupiter 711 and Pearl 665 flutes looked, LOL)

[TWerner]

Knowing I can get a great deal on refurbishing and repair if it's needed, there are several Yamaha 221's on ebay that look to be in very good condition. If I can win one for under $250, that would seem reasonable based on what you have told me. I've read on other sites that many students have played that level of flute for years. Alternatively, there is a used Pearl 501 for under $200, but it doesn't look great, or a new Pearl 505 for only $450. Lots of choices out there in "student" flutes. I'll let you know what I wind up buying her.
Thanks again,
Todd

[Phineas]

Well, I have been reading this thread, and I am going to throw in a couple of cents.

The only issue I have ran into with a beginner with an advanced flute is the head joint, and open holes. Past that, it has been a wash. I have found that a young person that is prone to tear their instrument up will tear up any instrument no matter how rugged it is.

The downside is that step up flutes are made more specifically for a "type" of player. In a lot of cases, I have seen a beginner start out on X model intermediate, only to find the model they chose does not have the features that are suited for their developed style.

IMHO, if a person wants to start out on a $10000 instrument, then so be it. As long as they are guided through the pitfalls of starting on that instrument.

Lastly, in the end, people are going to do what they want to do regardless of what you tell them. After all, how many times have you been on a flute board and someone suggests that a Muramatsu was a good choice for a beginner instrument. Makes me wonder how many of those things are sitting in the bottom of someone's closet.

@TWerner

I think you are over thinking this whole thing. Just buy it! If you buy it off Ebay, it will need work. You can almost count on that!

Phineas

[TWerner]

Hi Phineas,

I actually do listen.

I promise not to buy her a Muramatsu for her first flute. I did buy a Mason andHamlin AA for her first piano, but we liked the sound best. In that case, it made a huge difference in the tone, and I like having a grand piano in the house. People just walk in a play it. Especially little kids.

I looked up Muramatsu. Buying a beginner a Muramatsu seems like it would be a complete waste (and also rude to all the better and more serious players who maybe can't afford one). What I didn't know before this thread was that buying a slightly higher end Jupiter or Pearl would also be a complete waste for her. If there's no upside, and there's a possible downside to a B foot, or open holes, or a more advanced head piece... I'll avoid them.

Buying things for my daughter is fun. Since she never asks for anything (unlike her brother), I actually don't get to do it much, so I hope you'll forgive my "over thinking" it.

Best regards,
Todd

[TWerner]

Might be all done.

Somebody on ebay thought they were selling a new Pearl PF 665RBE they'd received as a gift but never really played. It was listed at 400 opening, buy it now of 800, but the flute in the picture was closed hole and had a c-foot. The woman thought it was the 665 because there had been a store tag in the case that said 665RBE, but her guy friend had given her a PF505 and he confirmed that. So she dropped the opening bid to 200 and B.I.N. to 400 yesterday.

Today when I looked, I guess she got impatient because she put a B.I.N. of $200 on it, and I bought it. She has excellent feedback, so maybe she needed the money fast or something. I don't know. It's through Pay-Pal, so if it isn't a nearly new PF-505 like she described, I got scammed and I'll have a bit of a headache getting my money back. If it is real, Maddy will have a really nice first flute.

I'll let you know, and thank you again for all the advice.
Todd

[lianeandflute]

just putting it out there, the "beginner" muramatsus are probably a million times better than any yamaha or pearl because muramatsu works at an incredibly high level of craftsmanship. it will just cost more than a yamaha or pearl. but then your daughter would be starting out on a very good instrument. i think if i ever have kids and decided to get them into flute i would start them on an EX but with open holes and then move to a DS when they are more advanced.
but if you don't know where your daughter will go with it, i would recommend (as a teacher who just went through a 6 month period of begging parents to buy their kids new flutes and then seeing the amazing results when they did) a pearl.

hope your purchase works out! and i hope your daughter loves flute

[fluteguy18]

A Muramatsu EX is FAR from a beginner instrument. It's an entry level professional instrument. Furthermore, the only difference between the EX and the DS models is their metal content (which ultimately there is a large debate as to whether or not the metal makes any difference at all). Furthermore, the features (like open holes) don't define the instrument. Leone Buyse for example (one of the finest flute players in the world) still has plugs in a few of her keys. Honestly in my opinion...getting a young beginner an EX would be a poor use of judgement and financial resources.

[lianeandflute]

i know what you mean. and i know it's not a normal beginner's instrument. but i don't see how buying a b foot for a child is okay but not an EX :S and also buying someone a crap instrument is a horrible way to start and makes life harder, start with a good instrument and you can progress a lot faster - not that pearls or whatever aren't good. i would rather have started out on an EX, it would have lasted a lot longer, not a waste if you use it for 10 years, rather than moving through a series of average flutes during your progression. beginner flute, then another one if the first one was bad, then an intermediate flute, turns out that one is not so good so you get another, then you decide you want a professional flute…. in the long run it would potentially be more cost effective without the stress of changing from one flute to another a lot and developing bad habits that stem from having a bad flute (like having to work too hard with the lips or fingers etc).

the reason i said open holes is so that they can be plugged in the beginning and then slowly taken out later - lasting longer in the long run, and i like open holes as they force proper finger technique. i'm not saying they are superior, this is just what i like.

i know a girl who learnt straight off on a muramatsu DS with 9k gold head joint and she's wonderful and no problems with any habits that develop from flutes that aren't top notch. if the girl is 11 she's going to have more chance of supporting and using the EX properly than an 8 year old.

this is just my opinion, made from observation and my own experience going from an okay instrument to a very good one.

[Phineas]

i know what you mean. and i know it's not a normal beginner's instrument. but i don't see how buying a b foot for a child is okay but not an EX :S and also buying someone a crap instrument is a horrible way to start and makes life harder, start with a good instrument and you can progress a lot faster - not that pearls or whatever aren't good. i would rather have started out on an EX, it would have lasted a lot longer, not a waste if you use it for 10 years, rather than moving through a series of average flutes during your progression. beginner flute, then another one if the first one was bad, then an intermediate flute, turns out that one is not so good so you get another, then you decide you want a professional flute…. in the long run it would potentially be more cost effective without the stress of changing from one flute to another a lot and developing bad habits that stem from having a bad flute (like having to work too hard with the lips or fingers etc).

the reason i said open holes is so that they can be plugged in the beginning and then slowly taken out later - lasting longer in the long run, and i like open holes as they force proper finger technique. i'm not saying they are superior, this is just what i like.

i know a girl who learnt straight off on a muramatsu DS with 9k gold head joint and she's wonderful and no problems with any habits that develop from flutes that aren't top notch. if the girl is 11 she's going to have more chance of supporting and using the EX properly than an 8 year old.

this is just my opinion, made from observation and my own experience going from an okay instrument to a very good one.

Yeah, I know a guy who got his pilots license in a Lear jet. It took him 3 times longer to get his license than if he would have learned in a single engine Cessna.

Ok, buy the beginner the Muramatsu EX/DS. If you are a parent that has that kind of money to risk on a young child, why not go a head and buy a student model flute as well.

As far as that remark about starting out on crappy flutes, I was one of the people that started that way as well. I may not be the top principal flute player in the world, but I can hold my own on any playable flute whether the flute cost $50 or $20000. That girl you know had to do a lot of practicing to be able to play on that headjoint. That is why she plays decent. Has nothing to do with the flute itself. She got here good habits from a good teacher as well.

Still, from my personal experience with the Muramatsu headjoint, I still would prefer to start a beginner on something a little more tame to start out with.

I will not even mention that risk of the money being spent. I would at least like to know that my child was going to stick with an instrument before I spent $4000 on a flute.

Phineas