Why do score writers compose with a C & F flat ??

nasxxx · Post by **nasxxx** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:17 pm

Learning to play Syrinx by Claude Debussy, note i'm self taught never had a teacher (can't afford) but this this peice i'm having to practice more and more, at 1st glance it seems pretty easy, but then I do get lost abit remebering the Flats, it has G-Flat - A-Flat - B-flat - D-flat and E-flat
but why on 3rd bar near the end does it have a "C flat" and F flat, there are no "C" nore "F" flats on the flate scale surely this is an error.... is a "Lois Fleury" version 1999
Notes in question 2 Semi quavers (all slurred):- "A flat_C-Flat" to a 3 tuplet of D flat_F flat_ A flat"

shrug, also have noticed in other scores similar notations using flats for C and F surely this must be wrong.............

Fox · Post by **Fox** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:16 am

Composers at times change the scale of a composition. It's not an error. The composition starts out in Db scale, at the point where the two accidentals are the scale changed to Cb scale.

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:34 am

C and F flats are both fairly common accidentals. They are not mistakes in the Debussy.

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:35 am

C and F flats are both fairly common accidentals. They are not mistakes in the Debussy.

Callidor · Post by **Callidor** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:50 am

nasxxx wrote:there are no "C" nore "F" flats on the flate scale surely this is an error

If I'm understanding your confusion, then Cb and Fb are just B and E respectively. Good luck.

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:42 pm

Cb and Fb are enharmonic to B and E. But, in terms of music theory and the actual theory behind the way the scales are written, Cb and Fb are completely different than B and E. To write them as a B and an E, you would change the entire chordal progression. They would however sound the same. Just in terms of theory they are completely different because of the purposes they serve in the grand scheme of things.

nasxxx · Post by **nasxxx** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:27 pm

Just strange that they didn't put a natural and changed to B and E (which I would have done writing the score), I wouldn't have written it as a flat myself that did throw me a little

. I was thinking perhaps its was a semitone kinda half on the open hiole if that makes sense.
Thankyou everyone for clearing this up

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 7:51 pm

nasxxx wrote:Just strange that they didn't put a natural and changed to B and E (which I would have done writing the score), I wouldn't have written it as a flat myself that did throw me a little . I was thinking perhaps its was a semitone kinda half on the open hiole if that makes sense.
Thankyou everyone for clearing this up

As I said in my most recent post, rewriting it as a B and an E would have changed the chord. It really does make a difference when doing analysis of the chord progressions and the form of the piece. Even though they sound the same, in terms of music theory they are completely and totally different. You CAN NOT just use them interchangeably. It doesn't work that way.

If you have a chord built on C for example with an E natural and have a G#/Ab paired with it you have two options. They are both minor 6ths (the interval between C and G#/Ab). But if you use the G#, you have a root position augmented C major chord ( C E G#). But, if you use the Ab, you have a first inversion augmented Ab major chord (C E Ab ::inverted meaning the C is on the bottom when the Ab would normally be on bottom). And if the piece is in C major, and you use the G# you are dealing with a chord built on the tonic. But, if you use the Ab, you have an inverted VI (six) chord. So it's ultimately the difference between a C+ chord and an Ab+ chord. ( + means augmented).

So Cb and B are not the same thing when it comes to writing down the music. Nor are Fb and E. But to the ear, they are the same. But when writing music, you can't use them interchangeably.

AND, I apologize for getting all "Music Theory" on everyone. A lot of you probably understand what I said, but then again, I know a lot of you probably didn't. So, I apologize for going over your head.

Callidor · Post by **Callidor** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:35 pm

fluteguy18 wrote:Cb and Fb are enharmonic to B and E. But, in terms of music theory and the actual theory behind the way the scales are written, Cb and Fb are completely different than B and E. To write them as a B and an E, you would change the entire chordal progression. They would however sound the same. Just in terms of theory they are completely different because of the purposes they serve in the grand scheme of things.

Right. I was just trying to clear up any confusion in terms of actually playing the notes.

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Why do score writers compose with a C & F flat ??

Why do score writers compose with a C & F flat ??

Re: Why do score writers compose with a C & F flat ??