Yamaha 221 (2000-2002) versus Jupiter 511 2 (2007) - TRIALED

[flutego12]

ENTRY LEVEL STUDENT FLUTE TRIALS - USED

I've always believed in Yamaha products when I'm not going boutique - hence my first student flute is a Yamaha (my Clav is a Yamaha, as are my recorders - ok so, I'm vanilla) ...and I'm now learning COA on an entry level Yamaha. Enter my experience with the popular Yamaha 221 (trialled units were both 10-13yo).

No doubt my field of experience is currently v limited but I can attest to this...

Well, I happened to land 2 exceptional clunkers (from ebay & gumtree respectively) over the past fortnight and the first is pretty amazing, responsive, full of character (if you could term a 221 that, for jazz music - specifically Jeff Kearn's Play On) and timbres alive under my fingerrrs! Knocked my socks off. So easy to play. Tonight I played through half my repertoire with it and am positively in love with it, esp when it only cost me 201$. Cosmetically, this isn't as mint as the second I purchased locally through gumtree, but it was pretty amazing - my thoughts are, the flute must've been professionally maintained or had an exceptional technician. Man alive! The 2nd, pretty & minty one played great as well but by comparison... "not quite the same". But after COA, Clunker 2 was pretty amAzing as well (I surprised myself and almost didn't want to let it go). There wasn't much needed to be done, just lost motion on a key and timing adjustment on another and a corkpad replacement. In the process, something happened and Voila. (I'm guessing it's the headjoint cork adjustment)

Today for the first time, I had the opportunity to testplay two 6 yo Jupiter 511 both claimed to have only been very briefly played prior to being stored away for 4-5yrs. Hearing good things about Jupiter and it's link to Altus, I couldn't wait. Some shops claim Jupiter to be better than Yamaha as well, eg the one up my street. (perhaps softer metal to repair?) But... major disappointment. I just could not get a good tone out of them, there wasn't any projection. It was pretty awful (played one in a home, one in an open carpark) Except for one obvious key in one of the flutes, keys seem to seal ok - but this is after just a quick visual check without using feeler tapes. BOTH 511s had exactly the same lacklustre response and unremarkable tone. Am I that bad! (must've been!) The mother said to the son, Oh that so reminds me of your playing. Helloo, excuse me... I thought I am quite decent on my Yamaha 221... in fact my flutes TQ

Because they were both quite pricey one asking $380 and the other $480 (New only $525) with extras, there was no way I was going to even try to "improve" them, as I'm not confident with pads yet - besides I thought perhaps it could be the headjoint design and cut. A mag test would be great here to check the seal. BUT I really felt for the kids, they both gave up because one of them told me, it was just too hard to get a good tone out of it and lost interest. He opted for the piano instead. Ironically, they were recommended by their school, so there must be something good - just not in my experience. Kindly provide your educated thoughts.

I'm no pro. But my personal experience indicates there is a REAL DIFFERENCE IN PLAYABILITY (between the four USED flutes I tried). And Yamaha have come up trumps for me, in respect of playability, durability, reliability, resale value. I liked Clunker No1 so much I'm keeping it (even with its 3 dints). Sold No 2 "minty" too cheaply but never mind. What am I missing in the Jupes?

Also, does anyone know what the DIFF is b/n the Yamaha F100ASII and the 221 model? Love to hear your reviews.

Please excuse the ramblings of this newbie on a discovery trail and please pardon any obvious ignorance on my part.

[evrmre]

Not sure about sound quality, but I would guess the schools were given good rates to buy from the supplier, and so could say they worked consistently. Mechanical durability would have been higher on the list that good tone, I suspect. In fact, I think my hire one from school when I first started might have been a jupiter...

Jupiter has never had quite the rep of the yamahas or other recommended brands, and I've not really heard of any real model exceptions to that in the last 20yrs. Just not in the same league.

Of course, as you mentioned, there is that link to altus, so maybe the newer ones are better...?

[mirwa]

You cannot compare flutes without them being assessed by someone as being in optimum condition.

First I like yamaha, consistent. The jupiter 511 while it has soft keys etc, it can sound pretty good, it is a budget priced instrument that has been put into australian schools over the last 10 years, pearl is the other one, they are a bit hit and miss, some Ive picked up and gone OMG, wow. Others Ive gone Mmm its a student model so its okay.

[flutego12]

Not sure about sound quality, but I would guess the schools were given good rates to buy from the supplier, and so could say they worked consistently. Mechanical durability would have been higher on the list that good tone, I suspect. In fact, I think my hire one from school when I first started might have been a jupiter...

Jupiter has never had quite the rep of the yamahas or other recommended brands, and I've not really heard of any real model exceptions to that in the last 20yrs. Just not in the same league.

Of course, as you mentioned, there is that link to altus, so maybe the newer ones are better...?

Hi evrmre. Good to hear we are on the same page about quality and reputation. I would afffirm your last statement, however I haven't had the pleasure of playing Jupiter's latest issues. What I do know that year 2007 six year old flutes are still lacklustre and (v) unremarkable. Discussion excludes the higher end 711 which I've heard good things about.

How is your Schocker repertoire going?

[flutego12]

You cannot compare flutes without them being assessed by someone as being in optimum condition. Understand. Critical to have a standard reference pt, esp an optimumone. I think Clunker1 is pretty close to optimum. It made me sit up.

First I like yamaha, consistent.A key plus, hence I feel that I can buy with confidence. The jupiter 511 while it has soft keys etc, it can sound pretty good,How ... is what I want to know. it is a budget priced instrument that has been put into australian schools over the last 10 years, pearl is the other one, they are a bit hit and miss, some Ive picked up and gone OMG, wow. Others Ive gone Mmm its a student model so its okay.

hilarious mirwa, ... you crack me up when you speak the (my) lingo ? ...

Incidentally, can I digress a little?[

Can you tell me the difference b/n a Yamaha 221 versus the older F100AS II?
- on general performance and playability of the flute
- ease of maintenance and repairs eg something about accessibility of adjustment screws

Is the F100AS II well regarded in today's used market?

[evrmre]

How is your Schocker repertoire going?

The regrets portion is going well... The resolutions part is proving a challenge so far... practice, practice, practice...

[flutego12]

How is your Schocker repertoire going?

The regrets portion is going well... The resolutions part is proving a challenge so far... practice, practice, practice...

Good to hear.=)
Regrets are easy.
Resolutions always require some resolve Do share insights on how to tackle the tricky bits.

Can't wait to get back into it. Was disallowed to play anything apart from Arthur Hart stuff for 10 weeks whilst fixing this and that.
Winter Jasmine arrived last week but is no where as good imho as r&r.

[evrmre]

lol I just got started about a week ago myself. My teacher had me working through other stuff also, and work has been crazy. Hoping to spend a little time on this one, but still have struggles with the 3rd octave which keep throwing me, so might be a while...

But at least my teacher liked it too, so chances are good...

[flutego12]

lol I just got started about a week ago myself. My teacher had me working through other stuff also, and work has been crazy. Hoping to spend a little time on this one, but still have struggles with the 3rd octave which keep throwing me, so might be a while...

But at least my teacher liked it too, so chances are good...

I think your teacher is more flexi. At least she/he heard it. Mine is old school. Excellent techniques and believe in the hard slog. If I continued, I may be lucky to play it for her in about 7 years.
Mine says do not run until you can crawl (well not so directly, but pretty much that). But I was pretty sure I was jogging nicely too.

Flute is great fun and highly therapeutic. Stopped my lessons for now, regained my wings and is cyberwarping light years ahead again.
May go back later this year when the flute-bank is full. And the embouchure and diaphramic/ intercostal muscles have developed to a point, so I can do justice to the lessons.

[evrmre]

lol My teacher is mainly working on my sight reading currently (playing by ear for near 20yrs does create a few handicaps), so anything reasonably complex is a good thing.

For technique, I may need to look a bit further in the future, as my current teacher hasn't taught much before. The cost is low, and I'm sorting out the areas that I'm deficient in, but to really progress I'm going to need more professional input once the simple stuff is sorted out. She keeps me disciplined as well, which is good since I can be a little... random?

[flutego12]

lol My teacher is mainly working on my sight reading currently (playing by ear for near 20yrs does create a few handicaps), so anything reasonably complex is a good thing.

For technique, I may need to look a bit further in the future, as my current teacher hasn't taught much before. The cost is low, and I'm sorting out the areas that I'm deficient in, but to really progress I'm going to need more professional input once the simple stuff is sorted out. She keeps me disciplined as well, which is good since I can be a little... random?

Serendipity is a good thing. heheh. Structure is helpful.
My teach takes the lego route. Knock down and rebuild layer by layer. Pretty much I can tell you what I was taught - mostly fr Arthur Hart's Intro book. Which I must say is laden with great pedagogy. This I overlooked completely but have newfound respect for. Simple but builds layer by layer. She should have just packed me off at the outset with this bk. My teach also likes the original Tune a Day and Rubank method books which I hadn't yet touched since they are both visually and audially scincillating. Will eventually get to them.

I have procured just about enough instruction books to last me a lifetime... Let me know what you want to sort out and I'll see what I have in 2 dimension. btw you just reminded me about rnr, it was so nice to play it again, this time on latest acquisition - a simple 221 - so amAzing it is. so so amazing, it's almost "live" and I conserve air with it - great mileage. Regrets almost sounds like kurita's (ok maybe not, but I'd like to think so)... long way to go for resolution yet, but achieved gd headway today. I should go check if there is a trill for Resolution 4th Bar 2nd half CDC - y'know that one? There must be a simpler way than the clumsy route.
All ears if you have a solution for resolution.