Need info on a flute I purchased...

[aoswari]

Hello, I recently bought a flute and can't find anything about it. It is in a Gemeinhardt flute case, it is silver plated, and engraved on it is this number "8696"

Also engraved is

"<Metro>
Lackie Music Exchange
Los Angeles"

Any ideas? I was told it's not a Gemeinhardt because the name isn't on it. Is this true?

Thank you!

[pied_piper]

That is most likely not a Gemeinhardt flute. Years ago, larger music stores sometimes made arrangements with U.S. musical instrument factories to make instruments and engrave their store name on it. That practice has returned in recent years with some music stores contacting with Chinese factories to put their store name or a special name on instruments. These are known as stencils. I did a Google search and got nothing about "Lackie Music Exchange". Unfortunately, there is no easy way to determine exactly what you have unless the music store happens to still be in business and in this case it does not appear to exist any longer.

[Silversorcerer]

Not all stencil instruments originate in China, although it is certainly the case that most of them sold in the USA new today do.

The Metro Lockie Music Exchange of Los Angeles once stenciled Bettoney Cadet models, which were very nice beginner flutes built in Boston, Massachusetts for many years. I have also seen what certainly appear to be Bettoney metal clarinets with the Metro Lockie name on them. Your flute might be a Bettoney. Clues will be no "Made in Foreign country" notice anywhere. In the past, the assumption is made in USA unless otherwise stamped. The serial sequence on Bettoneys changed a few times, sometimes with just digits, sometimes with the prefix BN. You might compare your flute to some photos of Bettoney flutes on ebay listings. There are a few key-work characteristics that will distinguish them. Generally there is no strap or rib. Toneholes are soldered, not rolled, but chamfered inwards and there are tall metal key stops with thin cork layers, no tall corks. The earliest models link the Bb trill key to the B key usually operated by left thumb and have two parallel right hand pinkie rollers instead of the more spatulate low C# key. Also there is a stop ring around the head tenon on very early models. The archaic features disappeared at different times over the course of a few decades.

[Silversorcerer]

I guess the easiest way to confirm who built the Mystery Metro Lockie flute;- it seems perfectly logical;- is to bring the question to forum where knowledge is shared among a large number of flute enthusiasts.

I compared a Metro Lockie flute, # BN 5905 to Bettoney Cadet #BN10764 and Bettoney Cadet # 734B, and Bettoney Cadet # BN 9483 and the key-work matches. These are later Cadet style keys with none of the archaic mechanical features. It appears that the stencils were not given a separate serial series.

I have also inspected two earlier Bettoney Cadets, # 8071 & #5431 and both of those have the archaic features;- the collar around the head tenon, the dual pinkie rollers, and the linkage between the left thumb key and the trill. If yours is a four digit Bettoney stencil, it might also have those features. The older ones like this do have tall corks under the keys instead of the sculpted metal stops that are lined with thinner corks.

There's more on Metro Lockie Music Exchange here:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread ... r-Clarinet

In that Metro Lockie went out of business when most stencils were domestically manufactured, it seems plausible that yours was made by the company started by Harry Bettoney, also known as just Bettoney or Cundy-Bettoney. The company was in Boston and Harry Bettoney began by making custom made flutes similar to Haynes and Powell flutes. I have seen quite a few Bettoney stencils and they even made some of the Conn Director flutes, but not all of them.

[aoswari]

You guys are awesome! How much do you think they are worth. In very good condition? Also, they are silver plated, not silver right?

[Silversorcerer]

My guess would be it is probably worth about what you paid for it because the way to measure worth is to exchange something for currency. You can see what other Bettoney Cadets sell for at auction. One of the Conn Director Bettoneys sold today on ebay. It will show up in a search for completed transactions. I don't recall the price. I doubt either the seller or buyer knew it was a Bettoney;- maybe the buyer knew something. It sold for more than double what a different vintage model Conn Director sold for earlier. The two looked nothing alike even though the logo was the same. Still, we are talking relatively low figures, but most of the ones on ebay are "as is" from estate sales. The Metro Lockie I have is a plated flute and I knew what it was when I bought it, and it was a great deal, or looked at a different way;- not worth much. Worth more to me than to the seller, I suppose, primarily because I knew what it was and Bettoney Cadets usually sell for more because the name is on them even though a stenciled one is the same flute. Aside from being made by a recognized maker, value depends mostly on condition when an instrument is an antique. If yours has the collar, etc., it's an antique, and even if it is later it is definitely vintage. Some companies made stencils less carefully, but this Metro Lockie stencil looks just like a Bettoney and so did the photos of the Conn that sold.

Mine was salvage price cheap and plays pretty well although I think a couple of new pads in the foot would improve it. I don't think I've seen one that was completely renovated for sale yet so it is hard to say what one in optimal condition is worth.

I have seen some Cadet models with heads that by the ping test probably have a pretty high silver content, but the Bettoneys that are sterling are marked and I think that was only on the H. Bettoney professional model and some of the piccolos. An intermediate flute model had sterling keys. I have seen photos of one of the Theme VI models and those finally have drawn and rolled tone holes. Drawn tonehole chimneys certainly streamlines manufacture, but some players and makers prefer soldered tone hole chimneys.

[aoswari]

Would you say it is a good student/beginner flute? I know nothing about flutes, but my 7 year old would like to take lessons.

[pied_piper]

Would you say it is a good student/beginner flute? I know nothing about flutes, but my 7 year old would like to take lessons.

There are always exceptions, but generally speaking, 7 years old is a bit young to start flute. If your child is large for his/her age, it might be possible. However, an ordinary flute tends to be too large for the arms and fingers of the typical 7 year old to reach comfortably. Fourth grade or 9 years old is the earliest that most schools will offer band instrument instruction and more typically it's fifth grade/ 10 years old. Most private teachers will follow the same age guidelines, but again, there are some who might accept a younger if the child's arms and hands are large enough to handle the instrument. Another consideration is whether the flute you have is even in good playing condition. There is nothing more frustrating to a young student than trying to learn on an instrument that is not in good playing condition.

There is one flute designed for younger/smaller students. It is the Jupiter Prodigy flute. This flute has a curved head and only goes down to low D so that the instrument is smaller and lighter. You will find though that these generally cost more than a standard beginner flute.

If you insist that your child start on the flute, you should first interview local teachers to find out if they will even accept a 7 year old - many will not. If you find one that will accept your child, have them check out your flute to be sure it is playable. If it needs repairs, it may cost nearly as much as a new instrument. Don't buy a flute until you know that a local teacher will accept your child.

I would suggest starting your child with a recorder. The size is better for a 7 year old and many of the basic fingerings are similar to a flute. Plus the cost (about $10 or less) won't be such a big investment until you are sure your child enjoys playing a wind instrument.

[Silversorcerer]

Would you say it is a good student/beginner flute? I know nothing about flutes, but my 7 year old would like to take lessons.

If it is indeed a Bettoney Cadet, it was built as a student instrument. But as above stated, it probably was built for a 10-12 year beginner. No age is too young if the student is interested. The best bet for a younger child in terms of a full size flute would be a curved head variety that shortens the extension of the arms necessary. Other than that, an offset closed hole body is probably best and the Cadet or Cadet stencil is that body type. If the Metro Lockie Bettoney is in good repair, it might be OK, but it's a full sized C flute. A good repair tech or teacher should be able to verify if the flute is working properly. It is possible to purchase a curved head joint separate from an entire beginner flute outfit, and that might be a viable way to make use of the Metro Lockie flute for a young beginner.

When I was that age, I was learning to play a plastic recorder. It's much easier for smaller hands and not as heavy as a flute and does not require developing a transverse embouchure. You can test whether your 7 year old is ready for a transverse flute by seeing if they can blow a note on a soda bottle. You can add some water to the bottle to raise the pitch to one that is easier to produce. If the child can't blow a note on a soda bottle, I wouldn't start them on a transverse flute. My sister started teaching me to play her transverse flute when I was about 9 years old. Of course I was busy with piano then also, and soon took up cornet, but by 9 years old, I had a lot of experience with blowing notes on soda bottles.