REPAIR SOS :In such a pickle - I finally bought a lemon ..

[mirwa]

Even then I know my limits and will not attempt that which I'm not comfortable. Dents and straightening?... you bet I'm going for it! Tenon resizing too. Rod straightening I'm not sure, don't like power tools, ditto the rest. I'd rather purchase the spare parts. That will be second or third year stuff. I am not taking this lightly. There is a lot of skill involved and I highly respect that. I know you mean well though it is beginning to sound a little condescending.

Well its your call.

Dents and straightening?... you bet I'm going for it!
Let me start by saying you must know how to fit a pad before doing any other repair, everything else is pointless without this skill to start with, example you have a bent key, once you straighten it you need to be able to get the pad level again or change it. If I have bent keys, after the repair I always fit a new pad to that key.

Tenon resizing too.

Ill address this one for you while on the topic. To make a joint fit properly you have to work out why its loose, is it loose because the tenon is worn or the socket is worn, if the socket is worn then you need to enlarge it and square it up, we use tools called plug gauges to do this, if the tenon is worn or undersized you need to expand this with a tenon expander and then shrink it back to size, when you roll the tenon to size, its not parallell, so this is why we shrink it back, because the shrinking tool makes it a parallel, most times its a combination of both tools that is required to achieve a properly seated tenon

Rod straightening I'm not sure, don't like power tools, ditto the rest. I'd rather purchase the spare parts.

Most spare parts cannot be purchased, this is why people are called technicians, they have to fabricate the stuff themselves to suit the job at hand.

I know you mean well though it is beginning to sound a little condescending.

Im sorry you think so

Steve


www.mirwa.com.au

[pied_piper]

Flutego12 - Joe, Steve, and I are trying to help you learn the essentials you need to be successful. At this point, I have to agree with them that you may be attempting some more advanced repairs before you have the basics. With your first two flutes, you were very lucky that they only needed basic, minor adjustments, etc. With your latest flute, I don't think you have a lemon, but apparently, it has received some harsh treatment possibly including dents, bent rod, hinge tube, keys, and/or posts.

As Steve indicated, those repairs require a bigger skill set and more experience. You are almost certainly capable of learning all of those skills, but you don't have them yet. With the variety of issues facing you with this flute, it will take a bit of time before you can acquire the skills to successfully address all of them.

It's obvious that you are very eager to learn how to repair a flute and that will take you a long way, but you need to be a bit patient and concentrate on the basic stuff before you try to tackle the tougher problems. That's not meant to be condescending, but it is realistic.

Keep asking the questions and we'll try to answer them and guide you, but you might consider putting this flute aside for a later challenge. If you choose to continue working on this one, try to focus on one or two related problems at a time. It's difficult for us to help you when post 5-10 different issues all at once. Make a list of the problems you've discovered and then maybe we can help you form a plan of attack to resolve them one-by-one.

Respectfully,
Bob

[flutego12]

I am not even repadding yet, just reseating the incumbent. Adjusting heights which has been successfully done.

You cannot have successfully established proper key heights if there are leaks and the flute is not regulated properly. The procedure is to adjust the pads first, regulate second, THEN establish the key height (venting height) and remove lost motion. Key height is NEVER adjusted using the regulation (adjustment) screws!There was only one pad "adjusted". Admittedly, key heights are not adjusted to spec yet, waiting for key height gauge to arrive to do that.... Update: what do you say to this blog? http://www.thomasjwestmusic.com/apps/bl ... cert-flute

Once the leaks are removed completely, Then each of the RH regulations can be performed. All the finger keys F/E/D individually adjust the F# key. The adjustment screws are for that purpose. FINALLY key height is adjusted. Established Key height on flute is performed where ever a key tail hits the body tube. Not sure how you mean and how that is achieved. Can you suggest how you mean that to be done, did you mean physical bending using say the special plier? The first one to do is the F key after the whole flute is regulated. Set that one and the rest are pretty much removing lost motion (at the key tails) for the A, E, D and Thumb keys. Offset G, G# and the vent are independent.

It would also help us greatly to use standard terminology. "Timing does" not mean anything as far as flute repair is concerned.Regulation There is pad leveling, pad seating, regulation, removing lost motion. Parts referred to hinge rod, hinge tube, clutch, back connector, etc., etc...

It's much more difficult effectively when terminology is not consistent.

Agreed

I stand corrected. Thank you Joe. This is very helpful indeed. Shocking approach mine. I think I was beginning to get a little impatient for the flute's gd. Of course, there is procedure in everything and that should be respected and consistently followed. Thank you for an apt and most helpful reminder. For the rest of the sages who are gritting their teeth. Thank you for bearing with me. I shall make sure I remember this.

[flutego12]

Flutego12 - Joe, Steve, and I are trying to help you learn the essentials you need to be successful. At this point, I have to agree with them that you may be attempting some more advanced repairs before you have the basics. With your first two flutes, you were very lucky that they only needed basic, minor adjustments, etc. With your latest flute, I don't think you have a lemon, but apparently, it has received some harsh treatment possibly including dents, bent rod, hinge tube, keys, and/or posts.Yes I concur, I do realise that, this is just scratching the surface.

As Steve indicated, those repairs require a bigger skill set and more experience. You are almost certainly capable of learning all of those skills, but you don't have them yet. With the variety of issues facing you with this flute, it will take a bit of time before you can acquire the skills to successfully address all of them. hm.

It's obvious that you are very eager to learn how to repair a flute and that will take you a long way, but you need to be a bit patient and concentrate on the basic stuff before you try to tackle the tougher problems. That's not meant to be condescending, but it is realistic. hmm...

Keep asking the questions and we'll try to answer them and guide you, but you might consider putting this flute aside for a later challenge. Xactly what I was planning to do. Infact, I may even just get the spare part for it. If you choose to continue working on this one, try to focus on one or two related problems at a time. It's difficult for us to help you when post 5-10 different issues all at once. Make a list of the problems you've discovered and then maybe we can help you form a plan of attack to resolve them one-by-one.Ten-four! My apologies, will do that one at a time. Thanks Bob. You 3 always make sense. I'm on board. 1 thing at a time.

BTW, update: I found this blog that is quite in empathy to my approach and use of the adjustment screws above for key heights (!) To each his own I suppose.
http://www.thomasjwestmusic.com/apps/blog/show/6560506

Respectfully,
Bob

[flutego12]

Even then I know my limits and will not attempt that which I'm not comfortable. Dents and straightening?... you bet I'm going for it! Tenon resizing too. Rod straightening I'm not sure, don't like power tools, ditto the rest. I'd rather purchase the spare parts. That will be second or third year stuff. I am not taking this lightly. There is a lot of skill involved and I highly respect that. I know you mean well though it is beginning to sound a little condescending.

Well its your call.
Dents and straightening?... you bet I'm going for it!
Let me start by saying you must know how to fit a pad before doing any other repair, everything else is pointless without this skill to start with, example you have a bent key, once you straighten it you need to be able to get the pad level again or change it. If I have bent keys, after the repair I always fit a new pad to that key.

Tenon resizing too.

Ill address this one for you while on the topic. To make a joint fit properly you have to work out why its loose, is it loose because the tenon is worn or the socket is worn, if the socket is worn then you need to enlarge it and square it up, we use tools called plug gauges to do this, if the tenon is worn or undersized you need to expand this with a tenon expander and then shrink it back to size, when you roll the tenon to size, its not parallell, so this is why we shrink it back, because the shrinking tool makes it a parallel, most times its a combination of both tools that is required to achieve a properly seated tenon

Rod straightening I'm not sure, don't like power tools, ditto the rest. I'd rather purchase the spare parts.

Most spare parts cannot be purchased, this is why people are called technicians, they have to fabricate the stuff themselves to suit the job at hand.OK I haven't come to that stage yet - cognitively (due to limited experiences), I'm afraid Steve , when that happens, I'll be queuing at the flute doc in a flash.

I know you mean well though it is beginning to sound a little condescending.

Im sorry you think so

Steve


http://www.mirwa.com.au

[mirwa]

http://www.thomasjwestmusic.com/apps/blog/show/6560506

I could be mis-reading what the poster has written in the article, Im pretty sure Im not mis-reading it. The person is full of ^%*%^,.

They clearly have no idea on how to work or repair a flute and embarass themselves writing such an article.

The screws on the keycups or behind the keycups for F/E/D are all designed to close F#, thats it, once they are all set to close F# perfectly then you remove lost motion via the foot at the back of each individual key.

It astounds me the mis-information that exists out there.

Steve

http://www.mirwa.com.au

[pied_piper]

Amen Steve. That guy obviously has no real repair knowledge or experience. The article is wrong on so many counts. In addition to your observations, he states "I na ver really understood why these adjustment screws were present - no other woodwind instrument has them.". (sic). Not only does he still not understand them, but he is very wrong that no other WW instrument has them. Most other WW instruments DO have adjusting screws and most of them are for adjusting the regulation and NOT for adjusting key height.

Maybe I should change my signature to "Never give an idiot a computer"... (referring to the article author -not flutego12)

[pied_piper]

Rod straightening I'm not sure, don't like power tools, ditto the rest. I'd rather purchase the spare parts.

Most spare parts cannot be purchased, this is why people are called technicians, they have to fabricate the stuff themselves to suit the job at hand.OK I haven't come to that stage yet - cognitively (due to limited experiences), I'm afraid Steve , when that happens, I'll be queuing at the flute doc in a flash.

Actually, making some replacement parts is not always that difficult. In your case, making a new hinge rod is really not that difficult if you have the appropriate supplies and tools.

You need an assortment of appropriately sized drill rod to select from - it's not terribly expensive.
Ferrees (and others) sells it: N50B asst. set of 31 pieces, 1 ea. 18" (457mm) long $31.00+s/h

For tools you need:
A micrometer to measure the original rod and select the same size drill rod stock
A thread gauge to measure the original rod threads
A jeweler's saw to cut it to the correct length and cut a screw slot
A jeweler's file set
(Optional - A Ferree's G44 Screw/Rod Slotter $59.50)
A set of dies to thread the rod
Thread cutting oil to lube the die and rod while cutting the threads

Detailed instructions here: http://www.ferreestools.com/New_Woodwin ... age362.htm

[flutego12]

http://www.thomasjwestmusic.com/apps/blog/show/6560506

I could be mis-reading what the poster has written in the article, Im pretty sure Im not mis-reading it. The person is full of ^%*%^,.

It astounds me the mis-information that exists out there.

Steve

http://www.mirwa.com.au

OK thanks, Steve for clearing that up, thomas j west blog has been DELETED fr bookmarks

[flutego12]

Amen Steve. That guy obviously has no real repair knowledge or experience. The article is wrong on so many counts. In addition to your observations, he states "I na ver really understood why these adjustment screws were present hm true, true, even I knew what they were for!- no other woodwind instrument has them.". (sic). Not only does he still not understand them, but he is very wrong that no other WW instrument has them. Most other WW instruments DO have adjusting screws and most of them are for adjusting the regulation and NOT for adjusting key height.

Maybe I should change my signature to "Never give an idiot a computer"... (referring to the article author -not flutego12)

very kind of you to clear that up Bob

[flutego12]

Rod straightening I'm not sure, don't like power tools, ditto the rest. I'd rather purchase the spare parts.

Most spare parts cannot be purchased, this is why people are called technicians, they have to fabricate the stuff themselves to suit the job at hand.OK I haven't come to that stage yet - cognitively (due to limited experiences), I'm afraid Steve , when that happens, I'll be queuing at the flute doc in a flash.

Actually, making some replacement parts is not always that difficult. In your case, making a new hinge rod is really not that difficult if you have the appropriate supplies and tools.

You need an assortment of appropriately sized drill rod to select from - it's not terribly expensive.
Ferrees (and others) sells it: N50B asst. set of 31 pieces, 1 ea. 18" (457mm) long $31.00+s/h

For tools you need:
A micrometer to measure the original rod and select the same size drill rod stock
A thread gauge to measure the original rod threads
A jeweler's saw to cut it to the correct length and cut a screw slot
A jeweler's file set
(Optional - A Ferree's G44 Screw/Rod Slotter $59.50)

A set of dies to thread the rod
Thread cutting oil to lube the die and rod while cutting the threads

Detailed instructions here: http://www.ferreestools.com/New_Woodwin ... age362.htm

Gee, thanks for that Bob, still very daunting for me. Will flash the list to my nephews and see if they recognise anything out of the workshop. Good chance hve the first two, may even have the drill rods, which I may have given up to them. Too many, too oily and sooty but find them we shall!