Back in the early 1970s, the high-end flute choices were Powell and Haynes. They just started importing Muramatsu into the US.
Being the impatient high-school kid that I was, I ended up with a Haynes because a 6-month wait was tolerable, while a 3 year wait for a Powell was not. Fast forward to 2006 when I purchased a 14K Williams headjoint.
My question is this, have the Boston flutemakers fallen out of favor while the Japanese flutemakers are more popular now?
I just don't hear much about the Boston ones on this board.
A question for the old timers
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fluttiegurl
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fluteguy18
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I wouldn't say that they have necessarily fallen out of favor either. However, a lot of people think Powell and Haynes aren't quite as good as they used to be. This could be a product of the fact that they used to be way better than anything else, and now there are TONS of fantastic flute makers.
Boston flute are often more expensive than Japanese flutes. Take a Brannen for example: A bottom of the line silver Brogger Mechanik costs almost as much as a top of the line silver Boston Classic from Miyazawa with all of the bells and whistles.
Now this is just my opinion: I think asian flute makers are producing flutes that lend more easily to the type of sound that is desired right now: large, fat, resonant, and colorful. They tend to have those characteristics without too much work on the player's part. But Boston flutes generally take more work in the beginning to learn how to play. Once you figure them out though, (in my opinion) they produce the same large sound, but with a much wider color palette. Most people don't want to work that hard, or buy based off of first impressions. I mean, if you listen to players with the most individual and unique sounds, most of them play boston flutes.
To name a few:
James Galway (18k Nagahara **used to be Muramatsu and a Cooper**)
Michel Debost (18k Haynes)
Jeanne Baxtresser (Powell)
Christina Jennings (Powell)
Marina Piccinini (Brannen)
Emmanuel Pahud (Brannen)
So it is an interesting dynamic there.
Boston flute are often more expensive than Japanese flutes. Take a Brannen for example: A bottom of the line silver Brogger Mechanik costs almost as much as a top of the line silver Boston Classic from Miyazawa with all of the bells and whistles.
Now this is just my opinion: I think asian flute makers are producing flutes that lend more easily to the type of sound that is desired right now: large, fat, resonant, and colorful. They tend to have those characteristics without too much work on the player's part. But Boston flutes generally take more work in the beginning to learn how to play. Once you figure them out though, (in my opinion) they produce the same large sound, but with a much wider color palette. Most people don't want to work that hard, or buy based off of first impressions. I mean, if you listen to players with the most individual and unique sounds, most of them play boston flutes.
To name a few:
James Galway (18k Nagahara **used to be Muramatsu and a Cooper**)
Michel Debost (18k Haynes)
Jeanne Baxtresser (Powell)
Christina Jennings (Powell)
Marina Piccinini (Brannen)
Emmanuel Pahud (Brannen)
So it is an interesting dynamic there.
Hi fluteguy18 , I think I tend to agree with some points raised here,
Im in the process of looking to upgrade from my muramatsu ex ,
I tried out a powell conservatory with a soloist headjoing , with 14k gold riser and lip - wow what a beautiful and as you say, colorful sound , I then went a cross to try out gx and ds muramatsus ,, my first impressions m were that the muras are better built , more ergonomic and very large sound and probably a little easier to produce , yet I loves the mellower , if one may say so, from the powell , well I'll have another go at them,,,
Im in the process of looking to upgrade from my muramatsu ex ,
I tried out a powell conservatory with a soloist headjoing , with 14k gold riser and lip - wow what a beautiful and as you say, colorful sound , I then went a cross to try out gx and ds muramatsus ,, my first impressions m were that the muras are better built , more ergonomic and very large sound and probably a little easier to produce , yet I loves the mellower , if one may say so, from the powell , well I'll have another go at them,,,
FG18/Avins:
You both make excellent points.
I tried my friend's Sankyo and thought, wow, this flute is much easier to play than mine and has a big robust sound too ... I have to really work at it, with more wind velocity (i.e. more resistance in the headjoint) to sound good on my headjoint/flute.
Also, when I got my flute in 1972, Haynes made only one Open-hole model, handmade with soldered tone-holes. Now they have many to choose from. Same with Powell, now they have their handmade flutes, their Conservatory line, and Signature line too.
Flutes have better scales now too. Even my Gemmy (solid silver body, plated keys, 12K springs) that I take camping has a better scale than my Haynes
You both make excellent points.
I tried my friend's Sankyo and thought, wow, this flute is much easier to play than mine and has a big robust sound too ... I have to really work at it, with more wind velocity (i.e. more resistance in the headjoint) to sound good on my headjoint/flute.
Also, when I got my flute in 1972, Haynes made only one Open-hole model, handmade with soldered tone-holes. Now they have many to choose from. Same with Powell, now they have their handmade flutes, their Conservatory line, and Signature line too.
Flutes have better scales now too. Even my Gemmy (solid silver body, plated keys, 12K springs) that I take camping has a better scale than my Haynes
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sidekicker
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As the owner of an old Haynes, and one of the "old-timers" who vividly recalls the early 70s period you mention, my opinion is that definitely Haynes has fallen on the favor scale. I believe, having tried both instruments over the past ten years or so, that Powell has done much better at holding its own. The main problem with Haynes, as I remember it, was when word got out that they were apparently bought by a Chinese company and that flutes were now being manufactured there to some degree. I say "to some degree" because I have heard many different versions of exactly where Haynes flutes are made these days. Mostly the answer I get from the reps has been something along the lines of: "the flutes are mostly manufactured in China", with a very quick "However, they are vigorously tested, adjusted, and sometimes even reassembled here in the U.S. if necessary before going into the market." I have no idea whether, or how much (if any), of this is true. It's just the general type of answer I have gotten, and it seems to me to be a very uncomfortable one to answer. From there then come all the horror stories we hear about Chinese flute manufacturing. Perhaps someone here has more accurate info on that so there are no misconceptions. Better yet, maybe someone from Haynes will come here and settle the issue once and for all and state very clearly the current Haynes manufacturing process. I really believe that the association with China, or whatever it is, has hurt Haynes the most; but that's just an opinion based on observation and comments I've heard from others.
As much as I love my old Haynes (1967), there is just something magical missing from the new ones. And that began, as I remember it, after the introduction of the Deveau scale. Many people bought those flutes, I remember, and ended up hating them. I'm relatively certain Haynes has improved the scale since then, though, so it shouldn't be a problem now.
To answer the question asked more directly: No, I don't think the Boston flutes have lost prestige. Brannen certainly hasn't, nor has Burkart or (in my opinion) Powell. However, there is so much more competition now than there was in the early 70s. And the Japanese manufacturers were not only able to get good flutes out faster, they came with a complete line of models to choose from quicker than the U.S. makers. You are correct that basically there were three flutes to choose from in the professional category here in the U.S.: Haynes, Powell, and early Muramatsu. Another thing to consider with regard to Haynes is how intimately Jean-Pierre Rampal was tied to them. He never played anything else but a gold Haynes on tour; sometimes his gold Louis Lot, but rarely. After Rampal's death, there was no huge name to put with the brand like that.
All above is just my opinion.
SK
As much as I love my old Haynes (1967), there is just something magical missing from the new ones. And that began, as I remember it, after the introduction of the Deveau scale. Many people bought those flutes, I remember, and ended up hating them. I'm relatively certain Haynes has improved the scale since then, though, so it shouldn't be a problem now.
To answer the question asked more directly: No, I don't think the Boston flutes have lost prestige. Brannen certainly hasn't, nor has Burkart or (in my opinion) Powell. However, there is so much more competition now than there was in the early 70s. And the Japanese manufacturers were not only able to get good flutes out faster, they came with a complete line of models to choose from quicker than the U.S. makers. You are correct that basically there were three flutes to choose from in the professional category here in the U.S.: Haynes, Powell, and early Muramatsu. Another thing to consider with regard to Haynes is how intimately Jean-Pierre Rampal was tied to them. He never played anything else but a gold Haynes on tour; sometimes his gold Louis Lot, but rarely. After Rampal's death, there was no huge name to put with the brand like that.
All above is just my opinion.
SK
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sidekicker
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And I very much agree with the point Fluteguy has made. The Asian flutes do tend to be easier to play in terms of getting a great big resonant sound. However, in my opinion, they become much weaker for a player desiring a much wider tone colour palette. I'm sure there are very colourful Japanese flutes, so I hate to make such a large generalization. I can only say for me that it's been the case that "Boston" flutes might be a bit more difficult to adjust to, kind of like an untamed lion, but once tamed can produce much more than their Asian counterparts. To me, it's very similar to adjusting from a basic high-end silver headjoint to a more custom-honed 14k head; there is more resistance at first to get used to, but once over that hurdle there is almost an endless supply of different sounds. Again, not to generalize too much; it's just been my own experience.
SK
SK
The Haynes pro flutes are still the same factory in the same place. Management and ownership has changed. The company underwent this "Change" after John died. They went from an exclusive pro flute making shop privately owned, to a much larger Chinese owned corporate style business. The basis of Haynes Pro flutes is still the same, but a large corporate owner introduces a lot of other considerations. As well as other products of different caliber...sidekicker wrote: The main problem with Haynes, as I remember it, was when word got out that they were apparently bought by a Chinese company and that flutes were now being manufactured there to some degree. I say "to some degree" because I have heard many different versions of exactly where Haynes flutes are made these days. ......I really believe that the association with China, or whatever it is, has hurt Haynes the most; but that's just an opinion based on observation and comments I've heard from others.
I would agree as well. There are just a lot more companies out there and there aren't a couple shining bulbs to light the way for everyone else.No, I don't think the Boston flutes have lost prestige.
Also, I don't agree with the assessment of color lack in Japan heads.
When you explore a headjoint fully you will discover its range of color. That is the same for the old school boston heads as well as the modern Japanese heads. I haven't found any lack of color in japan heads when compared to American heads.
I see tons of flutes of all types and ages and there is more than just the cut to consider when pointing out differences in heads. (People do tend to forget that I work on all types of flutes in my private shop even though I work for Pearl) Construction is everything and studying what all the maker are doing in their designs is part of my daily routine.
I don't find it a fair statement to state that old Boston heads are capable of more color than newer more powerful and responsive Japan heads or American heads for that matter...It's just a matter of design and getting used to any particular head.
Joe B
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fluttiegurl
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sidekicker
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Thanks so much for the info, JButky. I was hoping someone might have more accurate information. I still think it's confusing to buyers, though, to some extent and could lead to a certain amount of distrust of the company; i.e. if the "lower end" flutes are made in China there must be a reason (most likely cost), when will the professional flutes end up there as well for the same reason. In any case, I think it's good for this board to clear up any confusion.
My comments about colour and heads is based only on my own experience, and I thought I made that clear in my post. I've played this instrument we all have in common for nearly 35 years now, and in that time frame have tried just about everything I could get my hands on (for instance, it took me 20 years just to find a gold head that I liked) to ensure I purchased what suited me the best. So I'm not exactly uninformed in this area. However, I do realize that other people can -- and always will -- have different experiences, which is why I cautioned myself openly about making too much of a generalization. My personal opinion, though, remains that although Japanese heads tend to be much more free blowing (particularly in the lower register) to me, American (or "Boston" type) heads still allow me to produce a noticeably wider variety of sound qualities. One caveat I will add here, though, is that of the non-"Boston" makers, my hands-down favourite is Muramatsu (in gold), which for almost each that I have tried, comes closest to allowing me to produce a wide colour palette -- almost as wide as my Brannen-Cooper.
Hopefully, between the two of us we have made the most important point: headjoint choices, in particular, will always be the most affected by the individual player's wants and needs, and the absolute best thing to do is to try as many as you are able to determine what makes you sound the way you want to sound. I only wish that were easier done than said
CFlutist -- I love my Brannen; it is an incredible instrument, and I am glad I took the time to find the precise one that suited me best.
SK
My comments about colour and heads is based only on my own experience, and I thought I made that clear in my post. I've played this instrument we all have in common for nearly 35 years now, and in that time frame have tried just about everything I could get my hands on (for instance, it took me 20 years just to find a gold head that I liked) to ensure I purchased what suited me the best. So I'm not exactly uninformed in this area. However, I do realize that other people can -- and always will -- have different experiences, which is why I cautioned myself openly about making too much of a generalization. My personal opinion, though, remains that although Japanese heads tend to be much more free blowing (particularly in the lower register) to me, American (or "Boston" type) heads still allow me to produce a noticeably wider variety of sound qualities. One caveat I will add here, though, is that of the non-"Boston" makers, my hands-down favourite is Muramatsu (in gold), which for almost each that I have tried, comes closest to allowing me to produce a wide colour palette -- almost as wide as my Brannen-Cooper.
Hopefully, between the two of us we have made the most important point: headjoint choices, in particular, will always be the most affected by the individual player's wants and needs, and the absolute best thing to do is to try as many as you are able to determine what makes you sound the way you want to sound. I only wish that were easier done than said
CFlutist -- I love my Brannen; it is an incredible instrument, and I am glad I took the time to find the precise one that suited me best.
SK
Completely agree..sidekicker wrote: However, I do realize that other people can -- and always will -- have different experiences, which is why I cautioned myself openly about making too much of a generalization.
Hopefully, between the two of us we have made the most important point: headjoint choices, in particular, will always be the most affected by the individual player's wants and needs, and the absolute best thing to do is to try as many as you are able to determine what makes you sound the way you want to sound. I only wish that were easier done than said
SK
Joe B
I agree with what is said above. Also, I think those looking for flutes <$5000, are going to have more questions. Those looking for flutes >$5000 are likely to already have a fair bit of knowledge or opinions. The <$5000 cutoff removes Brannen, Burkhart, Powell, Nagahara, and other from the conversation.
When looking, I generally sounded better on the "Boston" style headjoints. The exception was that I sounded even better on some (not all) of the Miyazawa headjoints.
My question is: When looking for a headjoint you can grow into, how do you determine its potential? i.e. How do you determine if a headjoint that is currently challenging to play will be wonderful, if you just put the time and effort into it? As opposed to a headjoint that is hard to play and will always be hard to play, regardless of practice, because it is a crappy headjoint for you (but maybe not for others)?
I think this determination becomes particularly challenging if one is drastically changing from a headjoint that only needs a light touch to one with much more resistant.
When looking, I generally sounded better on the "Boston" style headjoints. The exception was that I sounded even better on some (not all) of the Miyazawa headjoints.
My question is: When looking for a headjoint you can grow into, how do you determine its potential? i.e. How do you determine if a headjoint that is currently challenging to play will be wonderful, if you just put the time and effort into it? As opposed to a headjoint that is hard to play and will always be hard to play, regardless of practice, because it is a crappy headjoint for you (but maybe not for others)?
I think this determination becomes particularly challenging if one is drastically changing from a headjoint that only needs a light touch to one with much more resistant.
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fluteguy18
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I think that's a great question, and one I'm asking myself lately. I'm looking to "upgrade" again, because my Miyazawa is starting to wear out and not exactly suit my needs anymore. I'm looking for at least a solid silver flute with a gold headjoint, or possibly and all gold flute. Coming from a flute that is predominantly nickel silver and free blowing, the resistance is something I am wary about. I love the resistance, the sound, and the response of these metals (taking into account various headjoint and flute designs of course... this is just a generalization). My problem is that I have a hard time playing pianissimo in the upper register with a clear sound. It always has a sort of "hiss" or "sizzle" to it, and that bothers me. When I throw a platinum riser into the mix, that fixes it most of the time.
My question about this is: is my problem because I am trying to switch from such a free blowing instrument that takes relatively no energy to play to a resistant (needing energy to play) instrument? Or is it a bad match?
This has been weighing very heavily on my mind. When I attend the NFA convention this summer I will spend a LOT of time in the show room trying out flutes. My Miya is getting the job done, and is okay, but hopefully in the next year or so I will be playing something else. A 10k Brannen/Nagahara, or an Aurumite Powell have caught my eye (and ear) for the time being.
My question about this is: is my problem because I am trying to switch from such a free blowing instrument that takes relatively no energy to play to a resistant (needing energy to play) instrument? Or is it a bad match?
This has been weighing very heavily on my mind. When I attend the NFA convention this summer I will spend a LOT of time in the show room trying out flutes. My Miya is getting the job done, and is okay, but hopefully in the next year or so I will be playing something else. A 10k Brannen/Nagahara, or an Aurumite Powell have caught my eye (and ear) for the time being.
This is not an uncommon problem to try and find a solution. Hiss/Sizzle is controlled by a very specific part of the cut and can be adjusted. To a secondary degree response (which can be interpreted as resistance) is also influenced in this same area, but other variables can make up for the trade off in what you seek. But these things are adjustable.fluteguy18 wrote:My problem is that I have a hard time playing pianissimo in the upper register with a clear sound. It always has a sort of "hiss" or "sizzle" to it, and that bothers me. When I throw a platinum riser into the mix, that fixes it most of the time.
My question about this is: is my problem because I am trying to switch from such a free blowing instrument that takes relatively no energy to play to a resistant (needing energy to play) instrument? Or is it a bad match?
This is very much like finding just the right pair of shoes. Platinum may be the answer if you know it works.
I would recommend a smaller, square holed embouchure hole that can have a quick alteration done of it is too hissy. That would be a starting place at the very least, other considerations aside..
The hole dimensions will primarily depend on your physical makeup. The upper register control is a function of your airstream spread against the front wall. Too sharp an edge will cause hiss. Too long,(wide) can be more resistant to playing softly, and depending on the thickness, thinness of your lips, the dimension from the lip side to the strike wall will be within a particular optimum range. (this also affects your ability to control sound at various levels).
Most players don't think of all the variables contained in a headjoint and how they are balanced in terms of dimensions, Materials, Cuts and overall geometry to produce a good match for what any player wants. That's why it's like trying on shoes for those not intimately connected with flute making and particularly headjoint cutting.
For me that is easy. I already know what I like in terms of specs. I simply take 4 quick measurements and match the geometry to a known template. The closer a headjoint meets my criteria the more I can guarantee I'll like it based on the measurement results.
And there are an infinite number of possibilities as far as headjoint construction is concerned.
Happy hunting
Joe B