Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
As some of you may have read in other posts, I'm trying out a Miyazawa flute right now. I love it to pieces! Only problem I have run into with the instrument is the foot joint is really hard to get on and off. I emailed the sales people today, but no response yet. Is this at all normal or is something wrong with the flute? Is it an easy fix??
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music." -Sergei Rachmaninoff
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
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pied_piper
- Posts: 1962
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:31 pm
- Location: Virginia
Did it bind the first few times you assembled it or did it start later? If it was too tight from the start, it may have been fitted a bit too tightly. If it started binding later, it might be another issue: On new flutes, sometimes a bit of buffing compound residue (or even fine metal particles left over from the manufacturing process) can be left deep in the socket of the footjoint. After assembling/disassembling a number of times, the residue gets pulled up onto the socket wall and spread onto the body tenon causing it to bind.
Use a piece of soft cotton material (like an old t-shirt) and some denatured alcohol (isopropyl alcohol will work too) to clean the socket and tenon. Use your finger in the cotton cloth and wet it with a little alcohol. Reach into the socket and wipe it very thoroughly. (long fingernails can be an advantage here to reach into the deepest corner of socket). You'll likely see some dark residue on the cloth. Repeat with fresh cloth and alcohol until it comes out clean. Do the same on the outside of the body tenon. That may help free it up a bit.
Examine the tenon very closely and look for any excessive or deep scratches. Some very, very fine scratching is not unusual, but if it looks suspicious, then metal particles may have caused galling of the tenon and socket. If you see that, then contact Miyazawa and ask them to correct the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling
Use a piece of soft cotton material (like an old t-shirt) and some denatured alcohol (isopropyl alcohol will work too) to clean the socket and tenon. Use your finger in the cotton cloth and wet it with a little alcohol. Reach into the socket and wipe it very thoroughly. (long fingernails can be an advantage here to reach into the deepest corner of socket). You'll likely see some dark residue on the cloth. Repeat with fresh cloth and alcohol until it comes out clean. Do the same on the outside of the body tenon. That may help free it up a bit.
Examine the tenon very closely and look for any excessive or deep scratches. Some very, very fine scratching is not unusual, but if it looks suspicious, then metal particles may have caused galling of the tenon and socket. If you see that, then contact Miyazawa and ask them to correct the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galling
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--
Why is that?fluteguy18 wrote:I've seen that quite a lot with new flutes. While it ultimately should not be an issue you should have to deal with, it usually goes away.
I noticed the same thing with my new 14K Brannen-Cooper.
The headjoint is fine, but the footjoint is tighter than I like. I cleaned it with denatured alcohol and it is clean. Also, I examined it, and there are no deep scratches, but rather almost a mirror finish.
Called Brannen last week and they said it was made that way on purpose and it should get looser as time passes. But it does make it difficult to assemble especially when I'm not touching any of the keys on the footjoint (heard that Straubinger pads are delicate so trying to avoid touching the keys when possible). I'll live with it for now, but if it is still tight when I schedule my first COA before the warranty runs out, should I ask them to loosen it? Or will that cause problems later on e.g. being too loose as time passes?
I noticed the same thing on my Haynes, even after 38 years, the footjoint was tighter than the headjoint.
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pied_piper
- Posts: 1962
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:31 pm
- Location: Virginia
The degree of tightness is somewhat subjective. Some players like them really "snug" while others prefer it to almost glide on. When manufactured or serviced, the fitter or tech will probably set the tightness a bit "snugger" than optimal because the joint will usually "wear-in" and loosen a bit over time. Unfortunately, flute techs don't have a gauge that will measure the foot/pounds of torque required to assemble/dissasemble the joint, so they go by what feels right to them. Most techs probably err on the side of tighter rather than looser to prevent the footjoint from getting so loose that it easily falls off.
Also, this effect is more pronounced on the footjoint than the headjoint because of the smaller surface area of the footjoint tenon. The headjoint tenon doesn't tend to loosen as much as the footjoint because there is a larger surface area that tends to force it to go in straight. With the smaller footjoint tenon, it's easier for players to push it on at a slight angle. Over time this will slightly compress the outer edge of the tenon. The result is an even smaller surface area in contact between the tenon and socket which effectively loosens the joint.
Also, this effect is more pronounced on the footjoint than the headjoint because of the smaller surface area of the footjoint tenon. The headjoint tenon doesn't tend to loosen as much as the footjoint because there is a larger surface area that tends to force it to go in straight. With the smaller footjoint tenon, it's easier for players to push it on at a slight angle. Over time this will slightly compress the outer edge of the tenon. The result is an even smaller surface area in contact between the tenon and socket which effectively loosens the joint.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--
If a footjoint is too tight on a new flute it is usually because there is residual dirt left in the box. If there is enough in there, it eventual galls and embeds itself in the metal. The easiest way to remove the dirt from the tenon is by rubbing paraffin on it, then working the tenon on and off with a pushing/pulling and twisting method. Most likely you will see blackish amounts of stuff inside the box (tenon receiver on the footjoint for the uninitiated). Clean it off with a cloth and also clean the tenon off and try again. If it is still too tight after that, then it will need to be slightly resized to be comfortable.
The paraffin acts as a lubricant and catch for any residual grime left in the box. It should be cleaned off well and not left in the box since it will gather more dirt. The reason tenons "shrink" over time is due to not putting the footjoint on straight and/or dirt than gathers in there compressing on the joint over time. You clean it out and then your tenon's loose. They don't just get looser over time without a reason.
Too much dirt in a tenon will eventual embed in the metal and if continued without cleaning, will gall and you won't be able to get the footjoint off easily.
None of this is uncommon and is pretty easily remedied, so don't worry..and..Keep it clean!
The paraffin acts as a lubricant and catch for any residual grime left in the box. It should be cleaned off well and not left in the box since it will gather more dirt. The reason tenons "shrink" over time is due to not putting the footjoint on straight and/or dirt than gathers in there compressing on the joint over time. You clean it out and then your tenon's loose. They don't just get looser over time without a reason.
Too much dirt in a tenon will eventual embed in the metal and if continued without cleaning, will gall and you won't be able to get the footjoint off easily.
None of this is uncommon and is pretty easily remedied, so don't worry..and..Keep it clean!
Joe B
When I detected that the footjoint was too tight on my new 14K Brannen, I immediately cleaned the tenon and the receiving end on the footjoint with alcohol. It was absolutely clean with no residue in either place. I did this with the flute that was fresh from the case before I even played it. I called Brannen again this morning, and they said to call back in two weeks if it is still too tight for my tastes.JButky wrote:If a footjoint is too tight on a new flute it is usually because there is residual dirt left in the box. If there is enough in there, it eventual galls and embeds itself in the metal. The easiest way to remove the dirt from the tenon is by rubbing paraffin on it, then working the tenon on and off with a pushing/pulling and twisting method. Most likely you will see blackish amounts of stuff inside the box (tenon receiver on the footjoint for the uninitiated). Clean it off with a cloth and also clean the tenon off and try again. If it is still too tight after that, then it will need to be slightly resized to be comfortable.
None of this is uncommon and is pretty easily remedied, so don't worry..and..Keep it clean!
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fluttiegurl
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:05 pm
Re: Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
I got a never used flute three weeks ago and it has a tight foot joint.
I also picked up a couple of used flutes at the same time and one had some sort of joint adjustment done to it by someone who probably did not know what they were doing and used the wrong kind of tool, my repairman thinks a sax tenon adjuster. What I concluded is that a lot of the damage over time to flutes is the result of breaking them down constantly.
My way to keep my good flute from ever becoming like the not so good ones is to just not break them down, or at least not very often. I made a flute stand and have trained myself to use it and not set the flute on a table or something. I took a picture of it this morning and realised how bad it looked, so I sanded it down and sprayed some clear gloss finish on it.
The point being, that with the stand in a place where you will not trip over it, it should stay nice enough without having to put it inside a case.
What if you had to take it somewhere? I have a tube (similar to one pictured below, but from Office Depot) for carrying blueprints that works and just make a sleeve out of bubble wrap and slide it in the tube.
I have done worse. Years ago, my sister sewed up a carry sleeve with strap out of blue jean material and I used that to take my flute out into the woods.
Of course someone with a five or ten thousand dollar flute may not want to do that, but someone else may find my info interesting.
I started with an ordinary 2 x 4 and used a 21/32" bit in my drill press, with the depth set to not go all the way through. The dowels are nominal 3/4" but slightly smaller. I cleaned up the ends a little after cutting to length, put wood glue in the holes and on the dowel ends and tapped then in with a soft faced hammer.
To swab out the flute, I use a brass gun cleaning rod which reaches all the way up.
I also picked up a couple of used flutes at the same time and one had some sort of joint adjustment done to it by someone who probably did not know what they were doing and used the wrong kind of tool, my repairman thinks a sax tenon adjuster. What I concluded is that a lot of the damage over time to flutes is the result of breaking them down constantly.
My way to keep my good flute from ever becoming like the not so good ones is to just not break them down, or at least not very often. I made a flute stand and have trained myself to use it and not set the flute on a table or something. I took a picture of it this morning and realised how bad it looked, so I sanded it down and sprayed some clear gloss finish on it.
The point being, that with the stand in a place where you will not trip over it, it should stay nice enough without having to put it inside a case.
What if you had to take it somewhere? I have a tube (similar to one pictured below, but from Office Depot) for carrying blueprints that works and just make a sleeve out of bubble wrap and slide it in the tube.
I have done worse. Years ago, my sister sewed up a carry sleeve with strap out of blue jean material and I used that to take my flute out into the woods.
Of course someone with a five or ten thousand dollar flute may not want to do that, but someone else may find my info interesting.
I started with an ordinary 2 x 4 and used a 21/32" bit in my drill press, with the depth set to not go all the way through. The dowels are nominal 3/4" but slightly smaller. I cleaned up the ends a little after cutting to length, put wood glue in the holes and on the dowel ends and tapped then in with a soft faced hammer.
To swab out the flute, I use a brass gun cleaning rod which reaches all the way up.
Re: Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
If you take your flute to a shop they can resize the tenon for you for about $25. I had to do this with my student flute a few years ago... It didn't feel natural to put that much effort into getting the footjoint on. 
I also felt like I was doing damage to the instrument by not getting it refitted.
I also felt like I was doing damage to the instrument by not getting it refitted.Re: Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
I have a good candidate for carrying out the no take apart policy outlined
in my post above. It is one that I mentioned in the internet rip off thread
in Flute Basics.
I just got it out of the shop yesterday and the local instrument repairman
did his best to fix the damage to it, and the subsequent botched repair
attempt done previously.
He put it together and played it enough to show me that it worked but as
he was doing that, I noticed the head was not pushed in all the way.
When I got it home, It was all I could do to put it together, and after a
few minutes playing, I noticed the foot joint was not all the way on despite
having come to to a stop, or at least what I normally would have taken as
a stop.
Today I went to my nearby gun shop and picked up a Outers 12 gauge
shotgun cleaning kit along with a bulk pack of patches for the same. I had
been using a brass rod for a smaller caliber rifle but it is not that good for
flutes, being skinny and hard to spin with your fingers and a handle which
on purpose rotates freely to follow the spiral grooves in a barrel. A shotgun
is smooth bored so it does not rotate which means you can use the handle
to spin the rod inside the flute. The piece on the end that holds the patch
is large and you can put a nice sized chunk of cloth in it to get at the whole
tube. Here's some photos. background is paper I use for bookbinding.
Item #96304, paid $10.99, but you could probably get it for less if you were so
inclined to patronize the big monopoly warehouse stores.
The rod is in three parts and using only two of them, you end up with about a
half inch of aluminum rod showing between the end of the flute and the beginning
of the plastic handle, when fully inserted. This is also an improvement over the
rifle cleaning rod, which had to use all the sections, which left an annoying,
excessivly long piece protruding, that made it a little difficult in a confined space.
in my post above. It is one that I mentioned in the internet rip off thread
in Flute Basics.
I just got it out of the shop yesterday and the local instrument repairman
did his best to fix the damage to it, and the subsequent botched repair
attempt done previously.
He put it together and played it enough to show me that it worked but as
he was doing that, I noticed the head was not pushed in all the way.
When I got it home, It was all I could do to put it together, and after a
few minutes playing, I noticed the foot joint was not all the way on despite
having come to to a stop, or at least what I normally would have taken as
a stop.
Today I went to my nearby gun shop and picked up a Outers 12 gauge
shotgun cleaning kit along with a bulk pack of patches for the same. I had
been using a brass rod for a smaller caliber rifle but it is not that good for
flutes, being skinny and hard to spin with your fingers and a handle which
on purpose rotates freely to follow the spiral grooves in a barrel. A shotgun
is smooth bored so it does not rotate which means you can use the handle
to spin the rod inside the flute. The piece on the end that holds the patch
is large and you can put a nice sized chunk of cloth in it to get at the whole
tube. Here's some photos. background is paper I use for bookbinding.
Item #96304, paid $10.99, but you could probably get it for less if you were so
inclined to patronize the big monopoly warehouse stores.
The rod is in three parts and using only two of them, you end up with about a
half inch of aluminum rod showing between the end of the flute and the beginning
of the plastic handle, when fully inserted. This is also an improvement over the
rifle cleaning rod, which had to use all the sections, which left an annoying,
excessivly long piece protruding, that made it a little difficult in a confined space.
Last edited by jmdewey60 on Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
I personally would not put any metal rod into the bore of my flute.
Years ago cleaning rods were metal, today they are wood (or plastic) so that they
don't scratch the bore.
Years ago cleaning rods were metal, today they are wood (or plastic) so that they
don't scratch the bore.
Re: Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
Good point. My Older Artley has an aluminum rod that came with it. The latestcflutist wrote:I personally would not put any metal rod into the bore of my flute.
Years ago cleaning rods were metal, today they are wood (or plastic) so that they
don't scratch the bore.
flute I have, which is the one that is mostly fixed that I was referring to in my
last post, a Yamaha 281, came with a plastic rod.
If one, including myself, was to use a metal rod, care should be taken to not let
the rod rub against the inside of the tube. This is doable and after a while, I would
imagine you would be well trained enough to where you wouldn't have to even think
about it.
To me at least, it is a matter of weighing the risks and potential benefits.
edit: Post edited by user, to remove part that is not exactly on topic.
Last edited by jmdewey60 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
edit: Post removed by user, to put in a thread where it will be on topic.
Last edited by jmdewey60 on Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Footjoint getting stuck...something wrong?
Flute Flags work pretty well to swab out an entire flute while it is assembled ... and they won't scratch the bore either.