Carl Nielsen Concerto for Flute and Orchestra

[flutendrum57]

Alrighty, I'm new here, but I have a question for all of you:

What is the story behind the Carl Nielsen Concerto? I know that the flute and trombone are constantly at arms, fighting against each other, but is there any other story that may help me invision something in this Schizophrenic piece? I was kind of invisioning a bird, constantly being captured and breaking away from time to time...I don't know...

Any help is greatly appreciated. I'm doing this piece for my college auditions.

Thanks!!

[sidekicker]

I don't know of any "back story" on this piece, other than Nielsen was apparently intrigued by having a duel of sorts between the flute and trombone at certain parts of his flute concerto.

IMO, I very respectfully suggest that you are way over-analyzing this piece of music. I wholeheartedly agree that it's critical for anyone performing a concerto (or playing with any other instrument or group) be very familiar with the score. It appears you are doing that; and you are to be commended! (So many flutists, IMO, don't bother to study what else is going on in the music besides the one line they are playing). But needing or wanting some sort of "vision" of what's happening in order to perform the piece goes a little too far, IMO.

Studying the whole score is much more important, and it sounds as though you are doing that. Others here may disagree, but I think you are doing enough as it is by knowing the entire score and getting your part down (it's not the easiest piece in the world, as you obviously know).

I'm curious about something, though. Why are you playing this for college auditions? Are they requiring it or is this your choice? If choice is involved, I would suggest a rethink on that. Hopefully, someone else will chime in here soon and give their opinion. I would not take the Nielsen concerto to a college audition if given a choice, but that's just my personal opinion.

SK

[flutepicc06]

I'm curious about something, though. Why are you playing this for college auditions? Are they requiring it or is this your choice? If choice is involved, I would suggest a rethink on that. Hopefully, someone else will chime in here soon and give their opinion. I would not take the Nielsen concerto to a college audition if given a choice, but that's just my personal opinion.

SK

I would tend to disagree...We don't know the OP's playing level, and as we're all aware (or should be) there are some fantastic young flutists out there. If (s)he can play the Nielsen well, I see no problem with using it for audition material. It might be rather impressive, actually. However, if (s)he is just your average high school player who can kind of get a handle on the notes, but has no idea how to play it musically, I also would warn against using such a piece.

[fluteguy18]

I'm curious about something, though. Why are you playing this for college auditions? Are they requiring it or is this your choice? If choice is involved, I would suggest a rethink on that. Hopefully, someone else will chime in here soon and give their opinion. I would not take the Nielsen concerto to a college audition if given a choice, but that's just my personal opinion.

SK

I would tend to disagree...We don't know the OP's playing level, and as we're all aware (or should be) there are some fantastic young flutists out there. If (s)he can play the Nielsen well, I see no problem with using it for audition material. It might be rather impressive, actually. However, if (s)he is just your average high school player who can kind of get a handle on the notes, but has no idea how to play it musically, I also would warn against using such a piece.

I agree. My most previous flute professor attended a masterclass by Jeanne Baxtresser, and she was absolutely amazed by a few players. She met a few that were about 15 years old, and were already better than most professionals. So, if [s]he can play it well, then go for it!

[sidekicker]

I figured you two guys would be on the same page. That seems to always be the case on this forum. But that's okay, I guess. Nothing wrong w/ agreement. But it's beginning to look like, to me at least, that there is little independent thought on these subjects between you two, and an almost immediate "me too" response to just about everything. Hopefully, I'm wrong and I apologize in advance if that's not the case. I haven't been here very long, so I can just go by what I've seen so far. In fact, I'm starting to think that maybe this isn't the place for someone like me. But I still respectfully disagree with both of you on this particular issue based on my experiences as both an auditioner and member of college audition committees in the past.

The reason I question the Nielsen as college audition material is because many schools (especially public universities) usually have more than just the flute professor on the audition committee (often it's the entire wind faculty), and the audition is usually not only to get into the school but to beg for scholarship money, an issue that everyone on the committee gets a say on because they are going to want $$ for students on the instruments they teach (at least it was at the university at which I taught). The Nielsen, as dreadfully difficult as it is to play successfully, does not, IMO, communicate to non-flutists who will likely be sitting on an audition committee just how hard it is to pull off (and there's no guarantee that the flute professor sitting there is going to explain it to them either). There are just plenty of other pieces in the repertoire that I believe show off the musical capabilities of a player (in the very short time you get to make an impression at all) to non-flutists than the Nielsen Concerto (like, perhaps, Dutilleux, Sancan, Bozza Image, Mozart G or D, Bach b minor sonata, Bach Partita).

That's all I was trying to say, and why I'd never take it to a college audition unless it was specifically required. I guess I should have elaborated more on why I thought that. It just doesn't show enough about the flutist, IMO, as other works except the capability to pull off a technically difficult (assuming the flute professor has communicated that to the rest of the committee b/c some of the hardest parts of the Nielsen, if done correctly, aren't supposed to sound all that hard) concerto that is very rarely performed with orchestra (to my knowledge). That's probably not going to be very impressive to a bassoon professor interested in getting scholarship money for bassoon students. When I did my NYC auditions, I told the committee what I was prepared to play for them and asked if they had a preference for what they'd like to hear. All three (Juilliard, Manhattan School, and Mannes) requested that I play the Dutilleux Sonatine and the Mozart G, mvt I.

Again, I think it's great when anybody can pull off the Nielsen. It's a hard piece of music. But choosing it for a college audition piece, IMO, would be a mistake when there are better pieces of music that, from a strategic standpoint, may make for a more successful audition outcome as well as increasing the chances of getting some dough to help pay for it.

Just my opinion.

SK

[flutepicc06]

Fluteguy and I do have very similar opinions much of the time. I don't think it's really an issue of free thought as much as that we just have similar ideas. Actually, one of the first meetings between Fluteguy and myself involved a disagreement over the pinless mechanism used on Pearl flutes, so we don't always agree. I think your points are very valid, and it just comes down to opinion. If I were to audit an audition, I would like to see that a student had the capability to play beyond the standard repertoire. I can definitely see what you're saying about other pieces offering more insight for non flutists into the auditioning high schooler's skill, though. Pieces that aren't usually performed in a given circumstance can really catch the eye of those listening, so I would support the Nielsen on that count, but perhaps other choices for such a short audition would serve better. Without really knowing the OP and their playing, I fear it might be impossible to say for sure. If you do not decide to stay with this forum, there are several other flute groups on the web, such as the Galway Flute Chat run by Sir James. Perhaps you would find one of those a better fit for you. It would be a shame to see someone who is clearly quite knowledgeable leave the web-based flute community entirely.

[fluteguy18]

Sidekicker-- Now that I see both your [full] opinion, and my original opinion, I must say that I agree with both sides [if that is possible]. They both have very valid points. I would hate to see you leave this board, despite any discrepensies [spelling?? ] in opinions. It is this variance of opinion that this board thrives on to give the most balanced view in the flute world. Even though you and I didnt get off to a good start, I would hate to see [like flutepicc said] someone as knowledgeable as you leave.

With my response to this thread I was coming from a perspective where the colleges I auditioned for did not have a set repetoire that was listed for the auditions. they only asked that I prepare two pieces of my choice. I chose Mozart in G major [1st movement] and Bach's Partita in A minor [Allemande]. Of the places I auditioned at, the majority [all but one university] had private auditions: the flute professor and I 1 on 1. the other university actually had a panel like you described in your post and the flute professor was not in attendance. But, either way, I won scholarships from every school I auditioned at. So, I agree with you, and disagree as well [an odd combination, but my brain seems to have balanced it out ......].


And I see what you mean about flutepicc and I..... we DO seem to be on a very similiar wavelength [ when I read your post, I immediately thought of our initial INVOLVED debate about the pearl mechanism]. But we do have independant thought [ I assure you]. We have similiar Ideas [like what he already said] but we have slightly different perspectives.

See, if you do a search on pearl flutes and find our debate, you will see that we do sometimes disagree. In that debate, he was looking at the pinless mech and the one piece core bar as separate entities within the whole. However I was looking at it from a perspective of them working together as ONE for an entire mechanism. So, a small miscommunication was the creation of this debate [ it was in july/ august I think]. And, in case you havent noticed, [at least in my opinion] I believe I am slightly more "long winded" than flutepicc is.

[flutepicc06]

And I see what you mean about flutepicc and I..... we DO seem to be on a very similiar wavelength [ when I read your post, I immediately thought of our initial INVOLVED debate about the pearl mechanism]. But we do have independant thought [ I assure you]. We have similiar Ideas [like what he already said] but we have slightly different perspectives.

It's funny...We both even chose to reference the same disagreement.

[sidekicker]

Thanks to you both (I'm addressing both flutepicc and fluteguy here). Again, I apologize if I was off-base on the "me-too" stuff. I don't have enough time to spend here as you guys apparently do, so I guess I've missed the big "pin" debate . In any case, I appreciate your warm words of encouragement to stick around. I like this forum when I have the time to participate. I guess I'd just like to see deeper debate, rather than a bunch of pats on the back and attaboys. Those are important to an extent, but it doesn't move the debate along very much. The biggest reason you've heard so much from me recently is (1) it's the weekend and I'm not working my behind off; and (2) my cat that I had for 18 yrs died the other day and I've been using the net as somewhat of a diversionary way of coping with the loss. I absolutely love the flute and, even though I no longer play professionally, have made a personal commitment to get back involved with it. So here I am!

If I were to audit an audition, I would like to see that a student had the capability to play beyond the standard repertoire.

The Nielsen is in the standard repertoire, or at least it will be if you go to a conservatory or big name music school or study with a big name teacher. Not to put words in your mouth, but I think what you probably meant is that it is just a much lesser performed piece in our rep. And I think that's because (a) the piano reduction sucks and is hard, and (b) it's very difficult for the orchestra to play too, assuming you can even find one willing to do it (the Ibert comes with the same problems). Most flutists don't walk around with an orchestra at their disposal. No matter how much you try to escape it (like I tried with Density and Synchronisms ), you will have to study the Nielsen, at some point if you have a reputable teacher (don't misunderstand, though; I love the Nielsen and wish it were performed more).

The deciding factors in choosing audition material should be, IMO, pieces you can play very well (both technically and musically), music that is likely to be recognizable to the bassoon, oboe, or clarinet instructor like the Mozart Concerti, etc. (in case you get stuck with a committee like that; and especially if the flute professor isn't or can't be at your audition), and music that will show something about you that hopefully won't be seen in other auditioners. The goal, quite simply, is to set yourself apart from the other 100 flutists standing in line to get one of the 2 open spots in that particular studio (Those were the approximate numbers for the studio I shot for and got into, but you see the point I'm making: big name school and/or big name teachers are going to have lots of people trying to get in and the odds of succeeding are generally very low because of that, so careful strategy is in order when choosing what music to play).

I agree, though, that it's probably a good idea to stick something in your standard audition rep that is less often performed. You are right: it is important to show the audition committee, especially if the flute teacher is there (which is 99% likely anyway) that you are flexible enough to tackle things outside of what other people are playing. That's why I think it's a good idea to announce what you have prepared and let them decide, that is, if you are at a school that has not set a standard rep that everyone has to audition on. If they say "start with whatever you want", then I would choose the first movt. of one of the Mozarts because even the first several bars show a lot about a flute player (phrasing, articulation, breath control, coloring, projection, etc.). Maybe we need an FAQ about choosing audition pieces and going through the audition process at the college level (and perhaps even the orchestral level; but that will be clearly different).

SK

[flutepicc06]

(2) my cat that I had for 18 yrs died the other day and I've been using the net as somewhat of a diversionary way of coping with the loss. I absolutely love the flute and, even though I no longer play professionally, have made a personal commitment to get back involved with it. So here I am!

I'm sorry for your loss. My family has tons of pets, and I've lost my fair share already, so I know how you feel.

The Nielsen is in the standard repertoire, or at least it will be if you go to a conservatory or big name music school or study with a big name teacher.

Yes, I realize that, and you're just about right about what I did mean (though I didn't write what I was thinking). As an auditor, I'd like to hear the player do something a little more unusual. It's fine if it's part of the standard repertoire, but something beyond the Mozart concerti or the Chaminade, or the Doppler Hungarian Fantasie, etc. would be a really nice break and show me that they are able to play things that are outside the realm of what every flutist at that level does.

The deciding factors in choosing audition material should be, IMO, pieces you can play very well (both technically and musically), music that is likely to be recognizable to the bassoon, oboe, or clarinet instructor like the Mozart Concerti, etc. (in case you get stuck with a committee like that; and especially if the flute professor isn't or can't be at your audition), and music that will show something about you that hopefully won't be seen in other auditioners. The goal, quite simply, is to set yourself apart from the other 100 flutists standing in line to get one of the 2 open spots in that particular studio (Those were the approximate numbers for the studio I shot for and got into, but you see the point I'm making: big name school and/or big name teachers are going to have lots of people trying to get in and the odds of succeeding are generally very low because of that, so careful strategy is in order when choosing what music to play).

I certainly agree with your goals, with the possible exception of making your choices recognizable to non-flutists. They may not recognize the piece of music, but they'll be able to appreciate whether you've interpreted and performed it well. Sure, they won't be able to say "Oh...There was a wrong note!" but they can say "Wow....That was some nice phrasing!" or "Your dynamic control and contrast is excellent" etc. I mean, when you go listen to an orchestra or a wind group, chances are there'll be at least one piece you haven't heard somewhere on the program, but you can still tell if they played it well. I feel the same works in an audition situation.

Maybe we need an FAQ about choosing audition pieces and going through the audition process at the college level (and perhaps even the orchestral level; but that will be clearly different).

SK

That might be a good idea, but it might also be difficult to come to a consensus on what rep was necessary, and since every school has slightly different procedures, it might be hard to keep it general enough, and yet still informative. If you're willing to give it a shot, I'll be glad to add my $0.02 in here and there or help in whatever way I can, and I'm sure others will do the same.

[sidekicker]

If you're willing to give it a shot, I'll be glad to add my $0.02 in here and there or help in whatever way I can, and I'm sure others will do the same.

I'd be happy to give it a start, but it will probably need to wait until next weekend or so. I'm running out of time on my weekend internet escapades. The same goes for working on a headjoint choosing FAQ. But I'll try to have something in the works over the next couple weeks if everyone can bear with me a little timewise.

Thanks.

SK

[flutepicc06]

If you're willing to give it a shot, I'll be glad to add my $0.02 in here and there or help in whatever way I can, and I'm sure others will do the same.

I'd be happy to give it a start, but it will probably need to wait until next weekend or so. I'm running out of time on my weekend internet escapades. The same goes for working on a headjoint choosing FAQ. But I'll try to have something in the works over the next couple weeks if everyone can bear with me a little timewise.

Thanks.

SK

I don't think that should be a problem. We don't have a due date for this little (or not so little) project!

[sidekicker]

I certainly agree with your goals, with the possible exception of making your choices recognizable to non-flutists. They may not recognize the piece of music, but they'll be able to appreciate whether you've interpreted and performed it well.

We are in agreement; I just didn't communicate that very well. I didn't necessarily mean that an auditioner should find a flute piece that the oboist, clarinetist, bassoonist, et. al, would actually know (although, if one picks the Mozart D, the oboist will surely know it because of the C major version they have in their rep). But since so many flutists choose one of the Mozarts, I think it's likely that they will indeed know the piece, which is why I recommended it.

But my main point, as you helped clarify, was that it's an important thing for an auditioner to have something available for the committee that is stylistically recognizable, if not actually recognizable (which would be even better).

Thanks for helping to hone this issue down to where it should be.

I also agree that it's going to be really hard to come to consensus as to what is good audition material, and what pieces one might want to avoid. But I think we could come up with general list of "these are always good to have handy (i.e., you can never go wrong having these under your belt for the committee, etc.)", "these are less often performed pieces that show off the flute well", and "these are pieces that, although wonderful recital pieces, may not be the best choice for college auditions because the time is so short for you to show your stuff and these show basically one feature of your playing abilities". (Of course, those titles would be framed a little more professionally ) Or, maybe just leave the last category off entirely to avoid the appearance of disparaging pieces of music (which probably is the better way to go since our goal is primarily to guide flutists toward what to play instead of what not to play).

SK

[flutepicc06]

I agree, but I do think we may want to use that last category as well. If we specifically state that they are great recital pieces, but aren't the best options for shorter auditions, I don't think that would be viewed as disparaging, and it might be very useful. We should be able to come up with at least some general categories. Of course there is no way that we can possibly list every piece that might be in one of those categories, but even a partial list may be very helpful to potential auditioners.

[sidekicker]

Yeah, I definitely think any list we compile is going to be a partial one. With such a wide repertoire for this instrument, there is just no way to make it "complete". And, even if we could, I don't think that serves the purpose of an FAQ on this subject very well. To me, we need to give ideas and advice; hopefully, something the reader has not yet considered or is debating the issue with him/herself and/or his/her teacher.

And having rethought the last category (the "don't ever bring these to a college audition" one), I agree with you; so long as we emphasize and perhaps briefly explain why there is a distinction being made, in our opinion, between why a certain piece may be great for a recital but a poor choice for college auditions (assuming there is complete freedom to choose what one plays, which is usually the case these days I think).

SK