Older Yamaha 881 model vs new modern version?

[sinebar]

Does anyone know how older Yamaha YFL 881 model flutes, (10-20 years
old), compare with new modern versions. Are new ones better? I have
heard that older Yamaha student flutes don't have as good a scale as
the modern versions but that's student level flutes. What about tone,
playability, construction or what ever else you can think of?

[flutepicc06]

The scale is just as bad on old upper level Yamahas as it was on the student flutes. I owned a 581 (equivalent to the current 674HHV) that was about 15 years old until this past summer, when I sold it. The scale was atrocious, forcing me to contort my embouchure in all sorts of strange ways to get everything in tune. I now play a Muramatsu as my back up flute rather than the 581. The tone on these older Yamahas is fine, but in my opinion somewhat limited in color (though I also consider the same to be true of most modern Yamahas), and projection was always an issue for me on the handcut EC head that came with it. However, the mechanism is well built and the general quality extremely good. I hope that helps.

[sinebar]

The scale is just as bad on old upper level Yamahas as it was on the student flutes. I owned a 581 (equivalent to the current 674HHV) that was about 15 years old until this past summer, when I sold it. The scale was atrocious, forcing me to contort my embouchure in all sorts of strange ways to get everything in tune. I now play a Muramatsu as my back up flute rather than the 581. The tone on these older Yamahas is fine, but in my opinion somewhat limited in color (though I also consider the same to be true of most modern Yamahas), and projection was always an issue for me on the handcut EC head that came with it. However, the mechanism is well built and the general quality extremely good. I hope that helps.

Thanks that did help but somewhat discourging because my 881 is an older flute. I suspect older than 10 years. Right now it's being repadded and cleaned so I haven't had much time to play and check the scale.

[flutepicc06]

The scale is just as bad on old upper level Yamahas as it was on the student flutes. I owned a 581 (equivalent to the current 674HHV) that was about 15 years old until this past summer, when I sold it. The scale was atrocious, forcing me to contort my embouchure in all sorts of strange ways to get everything in tune. I now play a Muramatsu as my back up flute rather than the 581. The tone on these older Yamahas is fine, but in my opinion somewhat limited in color (though I also consider the same to be true of most modern Yamahas), and projection was always an issue for me on the handcut EC head that came with it. However, the mechanism is well built and the general quality extremely good. I hope that helps.

Thanks that did help but somewhat discourging because my 881 is an older flute. I suspect older than 10 years. Right now it's being repadded and cleaned so I haven't had much time to play and check the scale.

Don't get discouraged yet. I personally dislike the old Yamaha scale, but you might find that it works well for you. It's certainly not impossible to play in tune or anything, but the embouchure gymnastics that I had to perform to play in tune throughout the range were pretty drastic. Every once in a while, I find that I'm falling back into the patterns I trained myself for when playing the Yamaha, which are not necessary on my current flute. Make sure that when you test the scale, that you are completely relaxed, with a wide open airway, and concentrate on not subconsciously altering your playing to sound each note in tune. I prefer the Bennett scale over any other, but as every player is different, you might be able to work with the old Yammie scale without much difficulty. Let us know what happens!

[john101]

You can always email Yamaha with your flutes serial number to find out the actual age.

It seems your having second thoughts about this flute. It so, you might want to consider putting it back on ebay. I gather the seller may have misled you concerning the age and condition. Initially you said 10 years old and now your talking 10 to 20. And now it needs a pad job. That should be costing between $500 to $850 if they are doing a pro job. If it cost about $200, your getting a student pad job and your going to get to know that flute tech very well, because you will be in for adjustments a lot.

I know some have suggested that you keep it and sell it later. I don't fall into that camp. While old Haynes, Powell, Brannen and Muramatsu flutes hold their value pretty well, Yamaha's just depreciate.

Just my 2 cents.

John

[fluteguy18]

While everyone here has had very valid opinions on it, I do have my spare change to toss in.

There is a flutist in our studio who plays a similiar model, and it is a very old yamaha [at least 20 years]. She plays it very well, and it plays in tune quite nicely for her.

So, I wouldnt get discouraged quite yet. When it gets back from the tech, give it a little while before you make any decisions on it. When Jean Pierre Rampal got his first gold flute, he hated it. Years later, he wouldnt part with it because he loved it so much.

But.... YES it is an older flute. YES there are better scales on the yamahas today. YES you will probably have to work slightly harder to play in tune... but all of that is okay. If you like the flute, and it plays well for you, then dont worry about it.

Otherwise... most of these flutes are solidly built. As I mentioned earlier, a flutist in my studio plays an old yamaha, and it's mechanism is very sound [even though she takes very poor care of it, it is still in good shape]. If sound is a worry, and you decide to keep this flute, then I might consider saving up for a new headjoint. The new yamaha headjoints [at least in my opinion] are much better than the older ones. And, besides that, there are dozens of headjoint makers out there. If you do decide to [sometime in the future] get a different headjoint, you may be surprised.

So, my advice is, dont get hung up on this right now. This sounds almost like you are having a case of what I call "Post Purchase Syndrome". Most of the time people have second thoughts about an instrument after they have purchased it. I did when I bought my Miya. Even though I absolutely fell in love with my flute when I played it, for a few weeks I was still doubting myself. But it all worked out for the best, and I dont regret it one bit.

If you like it, then that is all that matters. If you dont like it, then take action from there.

[flutepicc06]

That should be costing between $500 to $850 if they are doing a pro job. If it cost about $200, your getting a student pad job and your going to get to know that flute tech very well, because you will be in for adjustments a lot.

I know some have suggested that you keep it and sell it later. I don't fall into that camp. While old Haynes, Powell, Brannen and Muramatsu flutes hold their value pretty well, Yamaha's just depreciate.

Just my 2 cents.

John

I have to disagree slightly here. While you're right about the cost of a pad job, someone who has been playing only 7 months is unlikely to notice a significant difference between a student level pad job and professional one. In any case, student pads are softer (and generally thicker), and are often baked rather than shimmed. This means that while they require more pressure to seal properly, they actually require much less precision to install, and generally will do their job for longer than professional pads.

As for flutes holding their value, this depends far more on quality than brand. A top of the line Yamaha like the 881 that Sinebar has purchased will hold a significant amount of its value, as will a top of the line Powell, Haynes, Muramatsu, etc. A student level instrument depreciates greatly as soon as it leaves the store, but handmade professional instruments will maintain a very sizable chunk of their value regardless of age.

[sinebar]

You can always email Yamaha with your flutes serial number to find out the actual age.

It seems your having second thoughts about this flute. It so, you might want to consider putting it back on ebay. I gather the seller may have misled you concerning the age and condition. Initially you said 10 years old and now your talking 10 to 20. And now it needs a pad job. That should be costing between $500 to $850 if they are doing a pro job. If it cost about $200, your getting a student pad job and your going to get to know that flute tech very well, because you will be in for adjustments a lot.

I know some have suggested that you keep it and sell it later. I don't fall into that camp. While old Haynes, Powell, Brannen and Muramatsu flutes hold their value pretty well, Yamaha's just depreciate.

Just my 2 cents.

John

Well I guess I'm getting the student pad job because the tech said $170. But what is the difference between student and pro pad jobs?

[sinebar]

That should be costing between $500 to $850 if they are doing a pro job. If it cost about $200, your getting a student pad job and your going to get to know that flute tech very well, because you will be in for adjustments a lot.

I know some have suggested that you keep it and sell it later. I don't fall into that camp. While old Haynes, Powell, Brannen and Muramatsu flutes hold their value pretty well, Yamaha's just depreciate.

Just my 2 cents.

John

I have to disagree slightly here. While you're right about the cost of a pad job, someone who has been playing only 7 months is unlikely to notice a significant difference between a student level pad job and professional one. In any case, student pads are softer (and generally thicker), and are often baked rather than shimmed. This means that while they require more pressure to seal properly, they actually require much less precision to install, and generally will do their job for longer than professional pads.

As for flutes holding their value, this depends far more on quality than brand. A top of the line Yamaha like the 881 that Sinebar has purchased will hold a significant amount of its value, as will a top of the line Powell, Haynes, Muramatsu, etc. A student level instrument depreciates greatly as soon as it leaves the store, but handmade professional instruments will maintain a very sizable chunk of their value regardless of age.

I also have a Yamaha 381 and now I assume that the pad installation is a student level? If so it hasn't given me any problems yet but it's 8 months old more or less.

[flutepicc06]

But what is the difference between student and pro pad jobs?

The difference lies in both materials and techniques. A student pad job usually uses softer pads (so that additional pressure can force them to seal on the toneholes) that are thicker, while pro jobs use thinner, firmer pads. Also, many student instruments have pads with a set number of whole shims, and have been moistened and then baked to set them and put an impression of the top of the tonehole in the pad, while a good pro job will use tiny pieces of shims made of paper or plastic to raise different parts of the pad until it seals perfectly all the way around the top of the tonehole. Frankly, after only 8 months it's unlikely that you would be able to notice the difference (assuming both pad jobs ended up with all the pads sealing), aside from perhaps that one (the low level pad job) requires you to push harder on the keys. As for what you're getting, there's no way John, myself or anyone else can be sure. $170 is extremely cheap for an upper level tech to repad a flute, so odds are you're not going to get the best, but prices vary hugely based on area, demand for work, and in some cases even the instrument, so who really knows besides you and the tech?

Most mass produced flutes will use sub-par padding techniques, because it's simply not economically feasible for a maker to have everything padded professionally (that's where a good chunk of the price of an upper levle flute comes from). Most handmade and custom flutes will have a top level pad job when they leave the workshop. Obviously, massed produced flutes with less precise padwork still perform well for untold numbers of players.

[john101]

I guess main concern with padding a pro flute with student pads involve adjustability. Since many pro flutes do not have adjustment screws for the keys. And I'm assuming the 881 does not have adjustment screws. This coupled with many novice flute players pressing too firmly on the keys. I fear it will result in many trips to the tech for shimming. With a student model, with adjustment screws, many of these trips could have been avoided. And needless to say they could have also been avoided with a pro flute with hard pads.

[sinebar]

I guess main concern with padding a pro flute with student pads involve adjustability. Since many pro flutes do not have adjustment screws for the keys. And I'm assuming the 881 does not have adjustment screws. This coupled with many novice flute players pressing too firmly on the keys. I fear it will result in many trips to the tech for shimming. With a student model, with adjustment screws, many of these trips could have been avoided. And needless to say they could have also been avoided with a pro flute with hard pads.

That makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. And you're right, the 881 has no adjustment screws. I guess with hard pads you don't need any. I guess I will have to learn how to shim it. A pro pad job is really expensive unless I do it myself which I'm contemplating. But I will probably just see how the student pads do first.

[flutepicc06]

I guess main concern with padding a pro flute with student pads involve adjustability. Since many pro flutes do not have adjustment screws for the keys. And I'm assuming the 881 does not have adjustment screws. This coupled with many novice flute players pressing too firmly on the keys. I fear it will result in many trips to the tech for shimming. With a student model, with adjustment screws, many of these trips could have been avoided. And needless to say they could have also been avoided with a pro flute with hard pads.

That makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. And you're right, the 881 has no adjustment screws. I guess with hard pads you don't need any. I guess I will have to learn how to shim it. A pro pad job is really expensive unless I do it myself which I'm contemplating. But I will probably just see how the student pads do first.

Whether or not a flute has firm pads does not determine whether it has adjustment screws. Adjustment screws are simply one way (an easier way, from the tech's point of view, assuming the screws are designed well) to regulate the keys , but most professional flutes will not have them, as they have been given a bad name by poorly designed brands whose adjustment screws back out constantly, throwing the mech out of adjustment. There are pads of all different sorts, with a large variety of firmnesses and thicknesses on flutes with and without adjustment screws. Some of these include traditional felt pads from any number of manufacturers (or made by the tech himself), JS Gold/Silver pads, Straubingers. etc. Adjustment screws have nothing to do with the type of pads that can be put on a flute.

You really have to press HARD to compress even softer pads to the point that adjustment is necessary, in any case, and adding some cork (as necessary) to the clutches isn't exactly a difficult or particularly time-consuming thing to do. After only 8 months, Sinebar, it's very unlikely that you'll feel any lost motion that develops anyway....Many much more advanced flutists don't even know why their flutes stop feeling like they want them to. I think it is far too early to be concerned with the quality of the pad job, given that you haven't even gotten to play the flute with it yet. Of course, compression of the pads (which you mentioned as a reason why a flute with adjustment screws shouldn't have softer pads) probably won't occur equally around the whole top of the tonehole, which means that, should it happen, it's not an adjustment issue at all, but one of pads. Frankly, claiming that the soft pads are an issue on a flute without adjustment screws makes little to no sense.

As for learning to shim pads, I would certainly encourage you to learn, but it's an EXTREMELY precise art if it is to be done well, and you most likely will not attain the skill level necessary to do a truly good job for quite some time. It takes the padders at major flute makers years and hundreds, if not thousands, of tries to become experts at seating pads with only tiny pieces of paper of varying thicknesses. Don't expect to be able to teach yourself the necessary techniques, or to be able to do any pad work that may become necessary in the near future.

[Mark]

I guess main concern with padding a pro flute with student pads involve adjustability. Since many pro flutes do not have adjustment screws for the keys. And I'm assuming the 881 does not have adjustment screws. This coupled with many novice flute players pressing too firmly on the keys. I fear it will result in many trips to the tech for shimming. With a student model, with adjustment screws, many of these trips could have been avoided. And needless to say they could have also been avoided with a pro flute with hard pads.

I suspect that it would be a non-issue John, to be honest.
It would take an awful lot of gorilla fingering during practice to compress the
pads enough to be a bother at this point. And I suspect that sinebar will
have a fairly light touch on the keys for this new flute, since that is all
that should be needed.

Personally I like having the adjustment screws available, but that's just
my preferences.


mark

[fluteguy18]

I too think that it would take a lot of excess pressure to produce that result.

As for adjustment screws and shimming... both are good, and both have their setbacks. This was a concern of mine when I was still shopping around for my handmade flute, but the more I researched it, the less worried I was. If made well, both methods will serve their purpose.