Double tonguing vz single

[avins]

Unfortunately, I cannot take any lessons at the moments so I hope you can help. I practice my scales daily, along with single and double tonguing but somehow I prefer the sound and tone that comes out with single vz double. (I've been playing the flute for less than a year now). Although I realise that in fast passages double is a must , I was just wondering how much is double tonguing used , even when single is possible . In other words, is double tonguing used only in pasages where single is not possible at all.
Thanks for any help
Avins

[flutepicc06]

Double tonguing should be used only in passages where single tonguing won't do, though which passages those might be vary from person to person depending on just how fast they can single tongue. Your tone should not be affected regardless of what kind of articulation you're using....If it is, something is changing in your embouchure, air support or elsewhere, and you need to figure out what it is and stabilize it. Double tonguing is not easy, and I would not try to teach it to anyone with less than a year of experience. At this point you're still finding your tone, firming up the embouchure muscles, beginning with technique, and learning fingerings. There are far more useful (and appropriate, IMO) things that someone at this level should be working on. Personally, I suggest you discontinue your efforts towards double tonguing for now (especially considering that double tonguing appears to be destabilizing some other aspect(s) of your playing), and come back to it when you've got solid basics and actually have a need to articulate that quickly.

[fluteguy18]

It is a common practice to use double tongue-ing in passages that are articulated, but the tempo is too high to single tongue effectively. For most individuals, these tempos are usually higher than quarter note = 120 beats per minute when one is playing sixteenth notes.

Developing good double tongue-ing takes time. If done properly, double and single tongueing should sound the same. But, double tongueing takes more air support and a more controlled/ relaxed embouchure.

Because you are relatively new to the flute, unless you are in the vein of a prodigy, I recommend that you not worry about double tongueing quite yet. Establish good basics first. Work on tone studies, breath support, single articulations and phrasing. Use a tape recorder or other audio recording devices so you can hear yourself play.

Once you start working on double articulations, start out slowly. Work on eighth notes with the quarter note = to 60 or 72 on your metronome. Work on even-ness and tone quality. Practice going k k k k k k k k k to strengthen the "kuh" or "gah" or "goo" [etc. etc.] syllable so that it matches the strength of the tah, dah, doo etc. etc.

Practice makes "perfect" and be patient. Practicing inpatiently for even a short amount of time can wreak havoc that will take weeks, months or years to repair and unlearn.

[avins]

Thanks Fluteguy18 and flutepicc06 , for your great comments on this issue, I realise that it all takes time and patiance , I must just mention that before I picked the flute I'd played the bassoon , on and off, for many years and for a short period in a symphony orchestra , and practised double tonguing quite a bit and, in this regard , double tonguing is really much easier , technically to produce (on the flute). somehow , I feel that wiht all due respect to the advantages of double t.. there is some trade off in tone . the kah is more airy than a tah , although I presume that in fast passages it is less noticeable.
Thanks again for the good comments.

[flutepicc06]

Thanks Fluteguy18 and flutepicc06 , for your great comments on this issue, I realise that it all takes time and patiance , I must just mention that before I picked the flute I'd played the bassoon , on and off, for many years and for a short period in a symphony orchestra , and practised double tonguing quite a bit and, in this regard , double tonguing is really much easier , technically to produce (on the flute). somehow , I feel that wiht all due respect to the advantages of double t.. there is some trade off in tone . the kah is more airy than a tah , although I presume that in fast passages it is less noticeable.
Thanks again for the good comments.

Unfortunately, however much you practiced double tonguing on the bassoon, that only gives you an advantage in the very most basic mechanical sense...Flute is a very different beast requiring different techniques and abilities than other instruments, so you're ahead in the ability to read music, some basic grasp of the technical side of playing, and most likely your concept of style, but you're still going to be at about the same level as anyone else when it comes to tone production, flexibility, dynamic and pitch control, etc. As you've undoubtable noticed, flute playing (particularly the embouchure) is much different than bassoon, and until you have a consistent embouchure that is both firm (without being tense) and highly flexible, you almost certainly will hear a difference in tone when you start to double tongue. Eventually you'll get to the point where your playing is able to support double tonguing, and at that point you'll cease to hear a difference (tonewise) between double and single tonguing. For some great examples of magnificent double tonguing, take a listen to an old French player like Moyse or Rampal. The kah should be no more airy than the tah, assuming you're tonguing properly. In fact, nothing that affects tone should be changing...The only difference is what part of the tongue is stopping the air....Not how the air is being used, or what your embouchure/jaw is doing or anything else. Even in light of your previous musical experience, I have to continue to suggest that you forget about double tonguing for now. There will be a time where you're ready to start doing it, but for now, all you're likely (and it sounds like you may already have started down this path) to do is start forming bad habits that will be very hard to break in the future.

[avins]

Flutepicc06 , I really appreciate your comments , just show you how good it is, this kind of discussion, (braing storming )as one always learns new things . I agree with every word you say of course and I can tell you that of my daily practice , I dedicate much of the time to scales , and tone production, dynamics ,single to tonguing and also a bit of double tonguing you name it . Though , I must mention something regarding practice etc . In the teaching /educating process we know that circular /repetitive procedure is very important , which means that you laearn something upto a very basic leve at first and then you just go on , and after a while you come back to it but this time at a slightly higher level of difficulty etc. ,Well this is jsut to explaing why I am working on double tonguing as well ,

[flutepicc06]

I understand that theory, but unfortunately in this case you really are likely to do more harm than good. Aside from the possibility of destabilizing your embouchure (and thus tone), it's not unusual for students to form other bad habits which will take quite a lot of effort to repair later. Until you've attained the proper level, you're not so much practicing the technique of double tonguing (you know the basics anyway from your bassoon playing), as you are practicing it poorly, and thus imbedding the poor technique deeper into your playing. Double tonguing is an advanced technique, and there's a reason beginners do not start learning it straight off the bat....It's complicated and difficult to do without interfering with other parts of your playing. You should only start learning such techniques to a basic level once you've attained the necessary skill to warrant such repetition. Otherwise later you're going to have to undo all that poor practice before you can begin to learn it properly. In academic work or elsewhere, I believe that theory of circular procedure you mentioned could be quite helpful, but in flute playing it needs some modification if it is to even begin to be useful.

[arabians207]

What my teacher has us do to help with our double tounging is first practice it slowly.. of course. But she also has us do our scales and which ever passage/song we are doing with just the "k" , the back of your toungue instead of double tounging. So technically single tounging, but not with the front of your toungue like you would normally do.

I find that really helped me improve my double tounging!