Yamaha Flutes

[DivaricationOfMind]

So, lately some experiences with Yamaha flutes, manufactured in different countries have been raising my eyebrows. I play a yamaha 381h(6 months old and recently COAed) that was made in Indonesia. It plays fairly well, not as well as I'd like, but I deal because I can't afford an upgrade at the moment.

Now, a good friend of mine has a Yamaha 221(5 years old, overhauled two years ago) that was made in japan. Earlier today I went to visit her, and I played her flute. I was completely shocked because I sounded completely different. The tube vibrated under my fingertips, and the sound had a much cleaner texture, and the tonal colors were easier to manipulate. It was also much more responsive.

same headjoint, same body material. Only differences are that I have a B-foot joint, solid silver headjoint and mine was made in Indonesia.

and situation:

I went out to try high-end yamaha flutes. I found that all the yamaha EC headjoints I was trying did not play well for me at all. Except for one, and low and behold, the only difference between it and the other EC headjoints was that it was made in Japan and not in the USA or Indonesia.

I know I'm not hearing or feelings things because listeners agree.

So whats the deal here?

I'm extremely curious

[fluttiegurl]

It is very possible that two flutes even made to the same specs at two different factories react differently. I have heard that Japanese made Yamaha's are better from a mechanical standpoint, but have never tried two side by side for comparison. Did you switch the headjoints around to see if your head would fit your friend's flute? That may make a difference as well.

Think of it this way, my mom makes great potato salad. I have her recipe and no matter how hard I try, mine does not taste as good. What is the difference? We buy the ingredients at the same place, at the same time, prepare everything exactly the same way, and every time, hers is better. I even had her watch me make it to see what was different, and she did not find anything wrong. OK, so this is a simplified version, but when two different factories are involved, there will be differences, even if they are very minor.

[Phineas]

To add to fluttiegurl's statement.

The repair person, or person that sets up the instrument makes all the difference in the world! Most of the issues you describe are setup and adjustment issues. I will bet if you took your 381h to the right tech, and tell them what you want, they could make your instrument feel pretty close to how you want it. It also makes a difference how experienced the setup people in the factory are. I would bet the most experienced setup people for Yamaha are in Japan.

As far as the headjoint thing, I have experienced the same thing. Although the Japanese will not admit it, I think the flutes made for the Japanese market are cut differently than the ones for the western/other market. I have a friend who is a dentist that has an insteresting theory. He thinks part of the reason for the difference in Japanese made horns is the physical makeup of a Japanese person's teeth. Most Japanese people have an overbite. This maybe the reason why the heajoints may be slightly different.

Phineas

[etgohomeok]

I actually have had the opinion that Japanese Yamaha flutes are better than those from other countries. I have thought this for several years now and this opinion is backed by personal experience. So it's very possible that it is true.

[flutego12]

To add to fluttiegurl's statement.

The repair person, or person that sets up the instrument makes all the difference in the world! Most of the issues you describe are setup and adjustment issues. I will bet if you took your 381h to the right tech, and tell them what you want, they could make your instrument feel pretty close to how you want it. It also makes a difference how experienced the setup people in the factory are. I would bet the most experienced setup people for Yamaha are in Japan.Phineas, that is a possible reason - out of curiosity what exactly is involved in a new instrument setup? I've heard that before from flute boutiques b4 that claim (and perhaps rightly so) that their significant premium loading to a flute price is due to 3hours of painstaking set up for example. When a new flute is completed, would each one not have already passed stringent QA on the factory floor? Talking about quality flutes here.

As far as the headjoint thing, I have experienced the same thing. Although the Japanese will not admit it, I think the flutes made for the Japanese market are cut differently than the ones for the western/other market. I have a friend who is a dentist that has an insteresting theory. He thinks part of the reason for the difference in Japanese made horns is the physical makeup of a Japanese person's teeth. Most Japanese people have an overbite. This maybe the reason why the heajoints may be slightly different.Fascinating. I rather like them!

Phineas

[flutego12]

It is very possible that two flutes even made to the same specs at two different factories react differently. I have heard that Japanese made Yamaha's are better from a mechanical standpoint, but have never tried two side by side for comparison. Did you switch the headjoints around to see if your head would fit your friend's flute? That may make a difference as well.

Think of it this way, my mom makes great potato salad. I have her recipe and no matter how hard I try, mine does not taste as good. What is the difference? We buy the ingredients at the same place, at the same time, prepare everything exactly the same way, and every time, hers is better. I even had her watch me make it to see what was different, and she did not find anything wrong. OK, so this is a simplified version, but when two different factories are involved, there will be differences, even if they are very minor.

Hi fluttiegurl. That is such a cute allegory =)

[fluteguy18]

flutego12: Here's one of the darker secrets about Flute Retail.

I can't speak about the set-up process but I can say that a lot of the reputable manufacturing companies have individuals who actually do the set-up process before the instruments ever reach the dealer (Joe is one of those secret superstars). Then at that point they are sold at various wholesale price points to the boutique dealers who then *hopefully* test play the instrument before adding it to their inventory. Only rarely do the dealers actually invest significant amounts of time in the set-up process once it is in their hands. Often times the price you are seeing is reflecting their wholesale rate. Small boutique stores don't sell the same amount of volume that the bigger merchants do, so as a result many companies charge higher wholesale rates to those retailers.

In addition to the bottom line you're also paying for the shopping experience, the knowledge of the more specialized dealer (including the big names like FluteWorld), and occasionally any 'in-house' warranties. Even though you can get a Haynes at Woodwind & Brasswind and maybe even Amazon, it's a more exciting prospect to get it from a dealer that specializes. Furthermore these boutique dealers are likely to be the ones who will have better repair services.

However if you are looking for a specialized repair person, definitely do your homework on the technicians and their price points. I was comparing repair prices the other day between various specialized shops and the differences were amazing. Two wonderful repair shops had their prices posted for headjoint cork replacement. One was $50 each and another was $20 each. When the actual repair only costs the shop a few dollars at most (materials and employee wage) the difference in profit is incredible. Both offered comparable levels of service but at the higher priced store you're paying for their name and reputation as a flute store. The lower priced one? While they sell mostly flutes they're also highly specialized as an instrument repair supply company.

Oh, and Fluttiegurl: At Christmas time my wife and I made a batch of cookies exactly by the recipe her mother gave us and her mother verified we were doing it correctly as well. They weren't the same. I think we were missing a secret ingredient and you seem to be missing it as well. It's called 'Mom.' I can't figure out where to buy it. Maybe Costco? It seems to be a long-term investment that occasionally comes in bulk with age...

[flutego12]

flutego12: Here's one of the darker secrets about Flute Retail.

I can't speak about the set-up process but I can say that a lot of the reputable manufacturing companies have individuals who actually do the set-up process before the instruments ever reach the dealer (Joe is one of those secret superstars). Then at that point they are sold at various wholesale price points to the boutique dealers who then *hopefully* test play the instrument before adding it to their inventory. Only rarely do the dealers actually invest significant amounts of time in the set-up process once it is in their hands. Often times the price you are seeing is reflecting their wholesale rate. Small boutique stores don't sell the same amount of volume that the bigger merchants do, so as a result many companies charge higher wholesale rates to those retailers.

In addition to the bottom line you're also paying for the shopping experience, the knowledge of the more specialized dealer (including the big names like FluteWorld), and occasionally any 'in-house' warranties. Even though you can get a Haynes at Woodwind & Brasswind and maybe even Amazon, it's a more exciting prospect to get it from a dealer that specializes. Furthermore these boutique dealers are likely to be the ones who will have better repair services.

However if you are looking for a specialized repair person, definitely do your homework on the technicians and their price points. I was comparing repair prices the other day between various specialized shops and the differences were amazing. Two wonderful repair shops had their prices posted for headjoint cork replacement. One was $50 each and another was $20 each. When the actual repair only costs the shop a few dollars at most (materials and employee wage) the difference in profit is incredible. Both offered comparable levels of service but at the higher priced store you're paying for their name and reputation as a flute store. The lower priced one? While they sell mostly flutes they're also highly specialized as an instrument repair supply company.

Oh, and Fluttiegurl: At Christmas time my wife and I made a batch of cookies exactly by the recipe her mother gave us and her mother verified we were doing it correctly as well. They weren't the same. I think we were missing a secret ingredient and you seem to be missing it as well. It's called 'Mom.' I can't figure out where to buy it. Maybe Costco? It seems to be a long-term investment that occasionally comes in bulk with age...

tee hee.
Thanks for sharing the insights, fluteguy18, your secret is safe with me. Mah lups are sealed.
Certainly confirms my ... suspicions. Just didn't want to say, since I'm neu. I need to find a very competent flute technician that won't cost me a good entry level flute everytime I get it serviced.

You guys are hillarious ... Noooo, mums are irreplaceable! From my experience, part of the problem (in my case) lies with imprecise instructions - "oh, ... just a dash of this and that according to taste" wah?