I am primarily a saxophone player, but have been doubling on flute for a few years now. I have a few good texts on the subject, but ALL of them disagree on the basis of what produces an overtone on the flute. I find this incredible, as it is the most basic fundamental of flute playing, and must be a discovery dating back to Pythagorean times. But the various books and online resources I have consulted have ascribed it to any one of the following things:
- direction of airflow
- strength of airflow
- amount of tone hole covered
- proximity of the lips to the edge of the tone hole
- size of embouchure opening
- the opening of the throat
- the position of the tongue
- relative positions of the planets etc. ...
The incredible thing is, I can play comfortably and in tune over 2 1/2 octaves, and I STILL don't know exactly what the key determining factor is. I have just practised until I could do it. My guess is that I am not alone in this.
Can somebody provide me with the actual physics on this and kill this mystery for all of us? No opinions now...
The final word on overtones
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
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berkelator
- Posts: 3
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- Location: Perth WA
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pied_piper
- Posts: 1962
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:31 pm
- Location: Virginia
I see you are from Perth. I think one of the best references for the acoustics of the flute comes from your back yard! (Well, not quite, since you are on opposite sides of Australia. But it's the same continent! 
)
The School of Physics at The University of South Wales in Sydney has some really good and quite detailed information on the physics of flute acoustics. See their web site: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/flute/
It won't answer all of your questions, but it's a good start...
A Google search will also reveal other sites with information on flute acoustics:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ph ... +the+flute
The problem with answering your questions is that it's a bit like trying to describe to an archer the physics of how to shoot an arrow. You'd have to know the weight of the arrow, the tension of the bow string, the pull distance of the bow string, the distance from the target, the height of the target, the wind direction, etc. In reality, these kinds of things are usually learned by some instruction with lots of trial and error (practice). Similarly, there are a lot of variables to consider when playing a flute. Every flutist's lips are shaped differently, they blow with different levels of force, they have different flutes with differently shaped embouchure holes, etc. So, I think it will be difficult to get a precise, definitive answer to all of your questions.
) The School of Physics at The University of South Wales in Sydney has some really good and quite detailed information on the physics of flute acoustics. See their web site: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/music/flute/
It won't answer all of your questions, but it's a good start...
A Google search will also reveal other sites with information on flute acoustics:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ph ... +the+flute
The problem with answering your questions is that it's a bit like trying to describe to an archer the physics of how to shoot an arrow. You'd have to know the weight of the arrow, the tension of the bow string, the pull distance of the bow string, the distance from the target, the height of the target, the wind direction, etc. In reality, these kinds of things are usually learned by some instruction with lots of trial and error (practice). Similarly, there are a lot of variables to consider when playing a flute. Every flutist's lips are shaped differently, they blow with different levels of force, they have different flutes with differently shaped embouchure holes, etc. So, I think it will be difficult to get a precise, definitive answer to all of your questions.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--
--anonymous--
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berkelator
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:59 am
- Location: Perth WA
Hmmm... almost
Thanks for that. As you said though, it did not answer all my questions.
They ascribe it to both air speed and distance of the embouchure from the edge of the tone hole, but don't go into any more detail than that.
The analogy of the archer is not exactly right, because the physics of archery remain the same, regardless of the build, strength, technique etc of the archer. Training the archer would consist of developing his technique to apply these physical laws as best as possible. I'm not really asking for people's opinions of what I'm doing wrong or right. I want to steer away from that in favour of the actual physics of it. Once that is known, it will be become clear as to the best way to do it.
Your links were a good start though. Does anyone else have any more data?
They ascribe it to both air speed and distance of the embouchure from the edge of the tone hole, but don't go into any more detail than that.
The analogy of the archer is not exactly right, because the physics of archery remain the same, regardless of the build, strength, technique etc of the archer. Training the archer would consist of developing his technique to apply these physical laws as best as possible. I'm not really asking for people's opinions of what I'm doing wrong or right. I want to steer away from that in favour of the actual physics of it. Once that is known, it will be become clear as to the best way to do it.
Your links were a good start though. Does anyone else have any more data?
Indeed, many physical factors affect which overtones are produced. This is a good example of what makes flute playing so challenging. The flute is not entirely understood scientifically and flute makers still rely on experience and play testing to make good instruments (not to the complete exclusion of technology of course). Learning to play the flute well at a typical Conservatory/University involves even less scientific understanding.
One of my Science degrees is in Physics, and I am some what of an expert on aerodynamics.
Overtones Analysis = waste of time.
This is just another one of those areas of theory that is completely useless when it comes to flute playing or listening. Even the people that make flutes build/design them based on trial and error. Sure overtones exist, but is it really important to learn a bunch of useless theories as to WHY/HOW they exist while playing a certain instrument? Heck, you can put a capless bottle in the wind and generate a tone and overtones! Big deal.
The thing that gets me about the overall science of playing any instrument are these players that reach a point where they think there is something more. Then they tend to over complicate things with theories and science fiction. Flute players are some of the worse abusers of this.
Once you become a good player, there is nothing more than becoming a better or more appealing to the audience. Past that is nothing but a bunch of useless Bologna!!!!!
Just my .02USD
Phineas
Overtones Analysis = waste of time.
This is just another one of those areas of theory that is completely useless when it comes to flute playing or listening. Even the people that make flutes build/design them based on trial and error. Sure overtones exist, but is it really important to learn a bunch of useless theories as to WHY/HOW they exist while playing a certain instrument? Heck, you can put a capless bottle in the wind and generate a tone and overtones! Big deal.
The thing that gets me about the overall science of playing any instrument are these players that reach a point where they think there is something more. Then they tend to over complicate things with theories and science fiction. Flute players are some of the worse abusers of this.
Once you become a good player, there is nothing more than becoming a better or more appealing to the audience. Past that is nothing but a bunch of useless Bologna!!!!!
Just my .02USD
Phineas
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berkelator
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:59 am
- Location: Perth WA
What can I say, you are totally correct! The end result is the most important thing, and the science behind it is only useful if it helps you achieve or improve that.
I was looking for the basic principles as a teaching and learning aid. I guess I was just a little bewildered that nobody had really sorted out something which appears so simple at first glance.
Anyway, to hell with it. I guess the answer is what Schroeder said. When was asked how he could play those terribly hard Beethoven pieces when his keys were just painted on, he replied, "Practise, practise and more practise!"
I was looking for the basic principles as a teaching and learning aid. I guess I was just a little bewildered that nobody had really sorted out something which appears so simple at first glance.
Anyway, to hell with it. I guess the answer is what Schroeder said. When was asked how he could play those terribly hard Beethoven pieces when his keys were just painted on, he replied, "Practise, practise and more practise!"