Heavy or Thick Wall Flues

[rjg60]

I have 2 Tevor James Flutes on trial. Both are virtuoso flutes the only difference is that one has a C trill key and a heavy wall body while the other has no C trill key and regular thickness (both are silver with offset G and split E mechanism). Is there much of a difference between wall thinkness and sound and does the extra C trill key a useful addition. By the way it also has a 9K riser which I believe makes no difference.
thanks

[flutepicc06]

The C# trill is an extremely useful addition, and generally heavy walls are associated with a darker sound. However, I've played plenty of bright heavy wall flutes and plenty of dark standard wall instruments, so I don't believe this really holds up. The main difference that I do believe exists is in response and feel. Heavy wall tends to be a bit more resistant, so it takes a stronger airstream, and may speak slightly slower, while standard is "compromise" between thin wall flutes, which tend to take less work to play, and may speak faster, and the heavy walled instruments. Of course, there's no telling how your flutes actually play, or which one will suit you better. Choose whichever sounds and feels best, regardless of wall thickness.

[fluteguy18]

well, there are many opinions on this subject, therefore, I will give my opinion, but you must acknowledge that just because it is my opinion, it does not make it fact. Firstly, I am an individual that believes that solid materials do indeed make a difference in the tone/ texture/ color qualities. So, I disagree with your opinion in saying that the solid 9k riser makes no difference. If the embouchure is well cut [which in this case, it probably is] then I believe that you can feel a difference in the response in the riser material. But, this is my opinion, and I am not trying to force it on you.

As for wall thickness. A thicker tube requires more energy/ force to get it to respond. This is because the tube is thicker and it requires more effort to get the sound vibrations to travel through the thicker medium of sound production. So, in my expieriance of trying various flutes [ same model, and using the same exact headjoint] that thicker wall flutes tend to have a darker sound quality.

As for the C# trill key. This is a very useful addition to the flute mechanism, and it is my opinion, that it should become a standard part of the flute rather than a pricey option. I have one, and I love it, and I use it often. So, if you can not tell an audible difference between the two flutes, I personally recommend getting the heavy wall flute with the c# trill, merely because the extra key will provide more options for trills and tremolos.

But, as for the thickness and riser material, this is an issue that is commonly associated with the 'feel' of the instrument rather than the actual tone. I myself have played instruments that contradict these statements of sound quality in relation to material [ex: heavier walls typically lend to a darker sound, as well as do risers/ lip plates, headjoints etc. etc. made of gold or platinum and so on, so forth.]. But, as flutepicc already said, get what you like the best.
But, if you dont see yourself ever needing such a key, or having the desire to

[flutepicc06]

As for wall thickness. A thicker tube requires more energy/ force to get it to respond. This is because the tube is thicker and it requires more effort to get the sound vibrations to travel through the thicker medium of sound production. So, in my expieriance of trying various flutes [ same model, and using the same exact headjoint] that thicker wall flutes tend to have a darker sound quality.

You bring up an interesting point, Adam. I believe the differences in the feel are not actually because the extra material takes more energy to make vibrate. The column of air within the tube is what's vibrating, not the tube itself (for the most part). What likely is causing the difference is that thick walls are slightly more rigid due to the extra metal, which causes the vibrations within the tube to react slightly differently. It's the difference between the way the sound bounces off of the inside of a standard wall flute and a thickwall flute (which as you can imagine is a pretty minimal difference) rather than the way it travels THROUGH various thickness of material that's at question. At least that's my understanding of things.

[fluteguy18]

While you do bring up a valid point, I never discussed my opinion completely. I see it from a perspective of both sides. In my opinion, I see that the sound production is a result of both the tubing vibrating, AND the air column moving down the tube. This is merely a hybrid of knowledge that I gained when studying harp construction [and later building a harp of my own]. Yes, I understand that they are two completely different instruments, but the basic principals still apply.

In the construction of a harp, the sound quality is dependant upon two basic elements [apart from the strings and their vibrating length]. These elements are: the materials [species of wood] and the interior chamber. If two harps are built identically, but are made of two different species of wood, their tone will be different, regardless of the fact that their interior is the same. So, it is my opinion [to clarify], that the sound is produced in the manner of that you speak of. However, the basic color to the sound of the instrument [in my opinion] is dependant upon the tube thickness, and the density of the material.

Theoretically, this is because, the more dense the material, the more difficult it is to get it to respond [to vibrate--- the motion of the air splitting on the blowing edge and the vibrations in general causing sound production]. This applies to harps in terms of the material for the soundboard [hardwoods versus soft woods] and to flutes in terms of riser, lip plate and headjoint material [silver versus gold versus platinum etc.]. Therefore, if you notice, when flute makers use a more dense material, they thin down the tubing thickness. This is much the same with harp makers. If the wood is very dense in the soundboard, then they thin the soundboard.

I dont know if this made sense, but it was basically explaining that I believe the sound production/ sound quality is a combination of what we both stated.

[Emmyflute]

Hi, I think the more silver you have in a flute the better you sound. this week I got to try a Haynes q3 with a gold risor and solid silver body and keys. I sounded much better and got better response from the flute than my miyazawa which has a solid silver head and everything else is silver plated. Good luck deciding!

[JButky]

While you do bring up a valid point, I never discussed my opinion completely. I see it from a perspective of both sides. In my opinion, I see that the sound production is a result of both the tubing vibrating, AND the air column moving down the tube. This is merely a hybrid of knowledge that I gained when studying harp construction [and later building a harp of my own]. Yes, I understand that they are two completely different instruments, but the basic principals still apply.

In the construction of a harp, the sound quality is dependent upon two basic elements [apart from the strings and their vibrating length]. These elements are: the materials [species of wood] and the interior chamber. If two harps are built identically, but are made of two different species of wood, their tone will be different, regardless of the fact that their interior is the same. So, it is my opinion [to clarify], that the sound is produced in the manner of that you speak of. However, the basic color to the sound of the instrument [in my opinion] is dependant upon the tube thickness, and the density of the material.

Theoretically, this is because, the more dense the material, the more difficult it is to get it to respond [to vibrate--- the motion of the air splitting on the blowing edge and the vibrations in general causing sound production]. This applies to harps in terms of the material for the soundboard [hardwoods versus soft woods] and to flutes in terms of riser, lip plate and headjoint material [silver versus gold versus platinum etc.]. Therefore, if you notice, when flute makers use a more dense material, they thin down the tubing thickness. This is much the same with harp makers. If the wood is very dense in the soundboard, then they thin the soundboard.

I dont know if this made sense, but it was basically explaining that I believe the sound production/ sound quality is a combination of what we both stated.

Acoustically speaking, (and not theoretically...) you can't make the comparison in the manner in which a harp produces sound to that of a flute. A harp string vibrates the wood which directly activates the air in the chamber. The flute body does not do this, this is what the player does. Harps can also be controlled for tone and each piece of wood is different, so the skill of the maker to get any particular piece of wood to vibrate (plate acoustics) is the key. (same as guitar, violin, etc where the wood plate actually activates the air column.) Resonator acoustics also need to determine proportion of resonance for the box dimensions as well) Flutes do not operate on the principle of plate acoustics. In fact excessive body vibration is detrimental to acoustic response in the flute. You absolutely do NOT want the flute body to vibrate excessively as it robs the standing wave in the tube, created by the player, of its energy.

The Thick/thin wall debate is one of individual preference based upon HOW any individual player creates a standing wave within the instrument. It is dependent on the amplitude of that wave and is unique for any given player. High amplitude players need a heavy wall flute to prevent excessive vibration in the tube. In other words, any given player has a threshold where tube vibration can become a problem. And this varies with materials as well.

Darkness/brightness is a function of other matters acoustically. Some things to remember about flute acoustics:

• 1. There is transience as any tone is started as the standing wave first begins, This is governed by the match between the player meeting an embouchure hole geometry, the more efficient the match, the more responsive at that point.
  
  2. The standing wave does not travel down a flute tube, It doesn't work that way acoustically. A given length of tube produces a standing wave pattern. don't think of it moving in a direction.
  
  3. Flute tone is governed to a large degree by tone hole design. One must remember that the embouchure hole is a governing factor as it is the ONLY tone hole, that radiates for every given note on the flute. As such it's geometry is of critical importance for determining overall tone.

If you want to make a comparison of flute acoustics to harp acoustics as described, you would need to hit the flute to vibrate its body to activate the air as in a chime..Hopefully that visual can help you separate the differences and demonstrate why harp acoustics and flute acoustics are not the same..

[fluteguy18]

Check your date Joe.



Thoughts change... people change...

[JButky]

Check your date Joe.



Thoughts change... people change...

And new people read all the time..

[James_Alto]

I have 2 Tevor James Flutes on trial. Both are virtuoso flutes the only difference is that one has a C trill key and a heavy wall body while the other has no C trill key and regular thickness (both are silver with offset G and split E mechanism). Is there much of a difference between wall thinkness and sound and does the extra C trill key a useful addition. By the way it also has a 9K riser which I believe makes no difference.
thanks

How are you getting on?

I have a Trevor James Virtuoso flute too. I tried the same ones as you, however with a B foot and open holes, as well as the parabolic (shaped) embouchure.

From experience (and I'm not going to waffle theoretically, so please don't take it that I'm ignoring the interesting physics that goes with flute playing and designs), the extra C trill key is useful, particularly for classical pieces. The C concert flute isn't my first instrument - playing the alto flute, trying to play C sharp is a major pain: put yourself in position using a longer flute, and it just becomes unsteady or weighty on the right thumb. It's not really that necessary, but it does help having the C trill.

The thick wall vs thin wall didn't really make a perceptible difference to me: however the B foot vs C foot did. The B foot does make it 'darker' in sound. Similarly, the 9k gold riser was anathema to me: I preferred the sound of a shaped embouchure (rather than the flat standard) over the 9k gold riser. The shaped embouchure has a very powerful projection and a wide array of tone colour. If there's one single step worthwhile exploring in your options - try the different embouchure shapes that are available from Trevor James - perhaps not from your dealer, however they should be able to order in different embouchures. The parabolic convex embouchure is the one that really made me sit up. For the cost, it was really incredible for a solid silver flute.

I got the thick wall one: that is, the latest one on the market. The advantage of the Virtuoso, is that you can switch to a handmade joint later when you're ready, and continue to use the solid silver body. I've had problems trying to fit Altus headjoints straight on the Virtuoso body, but that's not unusual.

For what it's worth, with respect to the sound quality of flutes, I'm finding the silver content rather irrelevant, apart from perhaps, a back-up for a melt down source of silver during the recession. Professional wooden flute bodies sound fantastic compared to silver bodies. I prefer the warmer, darker, richer and resonant tones of a proper wooden flute. Silver concert flutes are fine, but can sound rather shrill and metallic in comparison to wooden flutes. Otherwise, the mellowness of the alto flute is my favourite: all the differences between thick wall; thin wall; C sharp trills or not - all of these are just micro-differences in comparison. On the other hand, an alto flute is a major difference in sound quality

[StephenC]

The C# trill is an extremely useful addition, and generally heavy walls are associated with a darker sound. However, I've played plenty of bright heavy wall flute music and plenty of dark standard wall instruments, so I don't believe this really holds up. The main difference that I do believe exists is in response and feel. Heavy wall tends to be a bit more resistant, so it takes a stronger airstream, and may speak slightly slower, while standard is "compromise" between thin wall flutes, which tend to take less work to play, and may speak faster, and the heavy walled instruments. Of course, there's no telling how your flutes actually play, or which one will suit you better. Choose whichever sounds and feels best, regardless of wall thickness.

My thoughts would differ since the extra weight they add is minimal, and even if they should stop working for any reason, they don't affect the workings of the rest of the instrument, so even a blatant malfunction doesn't matter too much. Most flutes models also offer a medium wall thickness, which I personally like as one isn't stuck with either extreme. It all depends on the player, though – I would try thick and thin walled flutes to see how your playing is changed.