Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

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flutego12
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Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by flutego12 »

Used Flutes - Accoustics & Resonance - Do they really improve with age?
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A lot have been said on this forum already about the irrelevance of silver content in the flute body, placing the onus on the headjoint - how we do not need to throwaway $$$ by getting a higher precious metal content flute this does not guarantee a better flute sound over its copper/nickel alloy counterparts which may sound as good or sometimes even better for a lot less money - example EX or the PA/PB 202 over full silver models etc

From that base, I've stumbled upon these interesting little paragraphs in Michel De Bost's book, "The Simple Flute from A to Z" (which I have absolutely fallen in love with & highly recommend. Michel De Bost, is a flute-sage and brilliantly written an engaging & enriching little book of tips and insights)...

On page 83 [FLUTE] he says, "Whilst the passage of time does not improve the accoustical properties of flutes made of different material eg German silver versus Sterling. Yet so many old flutes possess a resonant quality of sound that seem unobtainable from newer instruments of the same make and model, so ppl are inclinded to say the phrase [they don't make them like they used to anymore].

He says, "To explain this, one must accept the fact that the tone quality of such a flute is the result of the hardening of the metal body tubing ... " And then, more interestingly, "The point is that the tubing in old flutes made of non ferrous metals has hardened not with age but with use! This is a process called "work hardening." He tells us to consider the hardening phenomenon of the copper pipes in old homes - pliable when new but over time with usage for the transport of water/oil/gas, it becomes britttle after several years of use.

And he wraps with this, "assuming the flutes are well made in the first place and well played,there is every reason to think that a new flute can only get better with time."


On page 206 [RESONANCE] De Bost offers this, "Here is a totally unscientific opinion, a flute that is made to resonate (properly) by its owner becomes better with age. On the other hand, I have loaned my flutes to students and colleagues, and when returned after a month or so, it had on certain notes, the characteristics of the borrower eg this Db is sharper than before, Eb deader, or manifests a more wide open upper range or stuffier lower range. Pure paranoia on my part (he admits) but ...if there is any truth to this opinion, resonance must have something to do in response to the tube maerial"

Most interesting! Backtracking a little at the end of page 205 straddling 206, he writes "Scientists say only the shape and length of the tube affects resonance of the flute and not the material". However DeBost continues that accoustics is not an exact science and suggests that we can only be grateful that human intervention may have the last word."

What are your thoughts findings with your experience peeps? I thought perhaps different players technique may have an impact on the pad sitting and its shape which affects playing - never thought of resonance having so much impact! it could be magic... :wink:
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jseligmann
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by jseligmann »

Unscientific? Yes.
Belief does not make an assertion true:

"I have loaned my flutes to students and colleagues, and when returned after a month or so, it had on certain notes, the characteristics of the borrower."

"The point is that the tubing in old flutes made of non ferrous metals has hardened not with age but with use! This is a process called "work hardening."

Really, now.

And, by the way, this is what work hardening actually is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

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flutego12
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by flutego12 »

jseligmann wrote:Unscientific? Yes.
Belief does not make an assertion true:

"I have loaned my flutes to students and colleagues, and when returned after a month or so, it had on certain notes, the characteristics of the borrower."

"The point is that the tubing in old flutes made of non ferrous metals has hardened not with age but with use! This is a process called "work hardening."

Really, now.

And, by the way, this is what work hardening actually is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening
Not an unexpected response. :wink:

What about Landell's & Powell's say about the hardening of sterling silver over time....
http://www.flutebuilder.com/2012/06/are ... etter.html
http://www.landellflutes.com/gallery/innovations/
Last edited by flutego12 on Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pied_piper
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by pied_piper »

...and many people rejected science's explanation that the world was round and that the earth revolved around the sun...

People looked up at the sky and observed the phenomenon of the sun moving across the sky and incorrectly concluded that the scientists were wrong. It was obvious to them that the earth was stationary and the sun was revolving around them.

In these cases, we can be grateful that "human intervention" did NOT have the last word.
"Never give a flute player a screwdriver."
--anonymous--

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JButky
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by JButky »

flutego12 wrote: Not an unexpected response. :wink:

What about Landell's & Powell's say about the hardening of sterling silver over time....
http://www.flutebuilder.com/2012/06/are ... etter.html
http://www.landellflutes.com/gallery/innovations/
Landell is using Argentium Silver which is an Alloy that can be heat hardened. Regular silver alloys cannot be hardened that way. (and that is different from work hardening...)

Wasser is talking about stress relieving. Not hardening. He's also trying to push cyrogenic treatments. There's a huge leap of logic there that just doesn't make it to the other side. :roll:

Don't fall into the trap of techno gibberish. If you investigate these claims you find they are largely old wives tales..
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Phineas
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by Phineas »

To sum this up.

If bulls*** flew, and were made of rocks, we would all parish!

The end. :roll:

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flutego12
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by flutego12 »

JButky wrote:
flutego12 wrote: Not an unexpected response. :wink:

What about Landell's & Powell's say about the hardening of sterling silver over time....
http://www.flutebuilder.com/2012/06/are ... etter.html
http://www.landellflutes.com/gallery/innovations/
Landell is using Argentium Silver which is an Alloy that can be heat hardened. Regular silver alloys cannot be hardened that way. (and that is different from work hardening...)

Wasser is talking about stress relieving. Not hardening. He's also trying to push cyrogenic treatments. There's a huge leap of logic there that just doesn't make it to the other side. :roll:

Don't fall into the trap of techno gibberish. If you investigate these claims you find they are largely old wives tales..

WhoA! ... I'm reeling. Thank you for pointing that out JButky & PiedPiper & Phineas.
Well that settles that then. Seems that the octogenarian maestro, penultimate master of the french school after Rampal can still be given to t...g... and o..w..t..! He did say it was his personal thing hence the absence of the scientific ... but then not everything can be proven through the scientific. But let's call it a day. Unless somebody has something else to say. 8)
Last edited by flutego12 on Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mirwa
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by mirwa »

The only work hardening that can occur after manufacture is when someone bends a flute and it needs to be straightened, in this scenario we burnish / hammer / roll the dent. In doing so we are work hardening the brass underneath the plating.

Note this is only for brass plated instruments not solid silver or gold.

Cryogenics was a flavour of the month a while back, stating re-alignement of the crystalline structure etc etc, but its just another oil in a bottle being sold to people who are gullable enough to buy it.

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flutego12
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Re: Used Flutes - Do they really improve with age?

Post by flutego12 »

mirwa wrote:The only work hardening that can occur after manufacture is when someone bends a flute and it needs to be straightened, in this scenario we burnish / hammer / roll the dent. In doing so we are work hardening the brass underneath the plating.

Note this is only for brass plated instruments not solid silver or gold.

Cryogenics was a flavour of the month a while back, stating re-alignement of the crystalline structure etc etc, but its just another oil in a bottle being sold to people who are gullable enough to buy it.
That's good t'know mirwa Thanks! What flute do you play? In your opinion, what other elements are being bottled unnecessarily & purely for milking more $$$ from the ultra gullible?
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