Juilliard and other Ivy League Schools in the Music Worl

[AG950Flute]

From reading
other posts under different threads I thought it might be fun to start a new
topic. For those who have a dream of going to Juilliard, I say, go for it! Yes,
it is hard, and yes the odds are small, but not completely, besides SOMEONE has
to get in. Juilliard changed their audition process about three years ago. Four
years ago, they had an open audition process. Anyone who sent in an application
could go and play a live audition. However, they changed that. Now, you have to
send in a preliminary tape with your application in December. Since I was
applying to grad school I thought I''d give Juilliard a shot. I auditioned
there four years ago and learned a lot from that experience, and I wanted
another chance. I was invited out for a live audition. According to my
accompanist, they invited about 65 people to come and audition, out of how many
applicants it''s really hard to say. I auditioned and I played one piece of my
choice (and not the entire thing) and the Mozart concerto, just the exposition.
I knew I played well, and was happy to have had the opportunity to even be
invited. Unfortunately, out of about 25-30 people that auditioned on my day,
they called back only 3. I was upset, and really upset when I saw my really good
friend from my school get a callback, especially since we talked about our
auditions and agreed that we most likely played just as well as each other.
However, he knew the teacher at Juilliard and had done a masterclass the
previous summer at the NFA Convention and had made an important connection with
her. And that''s a fact of Juilliard. Unfortunately, it''s very political
and a lot of it is based on who you know. Doesn''t mean that the people they
accept are the best, although, granted, they are VERY VERY good. I think the
most important thing to consider when applying and considering a music school is
who the teacher is. In my opinion it''s the most crucial and vital part of
your undergraduate career. And teachers at schools change frequently, it''s
important to look closely at brochures and faculty members when applying. Some
teachers will take a sebatacle or leave of absence for a quarter or semester.
Jeanne Baxtresser taught at Juilliard for a number of years while she played in
the NY Phil, but now teaches at New England Conservatory and Carnegie Mellon. A
lot of people still aim for the namebrand of a school, like Juilliard. Yes,
it''s a great school, but it is not the only music school in the world. There
are definately other schools that offer phenomenal flute programs. I think it is
very important to do your homework on schools. When I auditioned for college my
senior year of high school, I was completely clueless, and all I did was
audition for Juilliard, Eastman, Peabody, Indiana University, and SF
Conservatory. I did very little to look into the teachers at the schools, and I
guess it was a slight blessing in disguise when I didn''t get in anywhere. I
studied for two years at a state college and received wonderful lessons and a
great education for very little money and then reapplied to transfer, and did
not audition at any of the same schools! I knew much better what kind of teacher
I wanted to study with and who would be able to help me achieve my goal in music
better. And always remember, being a musician is not an easy life, but it IS
rewarding!! Especially if it''s the one thing you love more than anything in
life! Rejection is a huge part, and you have to do your best to not let it get
you down. The joy of acceptance when you have been rejected several times makes
the joy that much more rewarding and amazing. And in terms of orchestral jobs
and top orchestras, just remember, a lot of those players are getting
old....[:)] They''re not gonna be there for another 20 years!! THERE IS A
CHANCE!!!! [:)]

[FluteDiddy]

Great
information. Thanks for sharing your experience and giving us a peak at what
happens at that level of the college audition process. When in doubt take a life
lesson from American Idol. Tens of thousands audtioned, almost everyone had
their freinds, relatives and instructors tell them how awesome they sang. Some
ended up in the final 12, some were Richard Hung and still got famous for being
horrible. Even if you are a great talent you are dependent on the opinion of
others and possibly whether they networked better as we learned from Courtney.
Often schools may have a wonderful reputation and then you go up for an
orchestra job and the person that went to the school that the orchestra director
went to gets the nod. Check out the professors. See if they have a masterclass
or flute camp you could attend while still in HS. You could make a connection
that will help later or you could find out that isn't the right person for you
to learn from. Thanks for another great post and topic Courtney

[FluteDiddy]

It is
interesting that in most fields you pretty much know what kind of job you are
headed for and about what it will pay. When you make a college decision the
guidance counselor at your HS may discuss what your chances of getting the job
you want and your pay will vary because of the University you attend. In the
entertainment world which playing the flute is part of, finding out what you
will end up doing and how much it will pay is nearly impossible. So do you just
go and do it because you love it and let the money be dammed? It would be
interesting to see how many top performance jobs are really available in the US
and worldwide as a flute player. Principal jobs at the biggest major orchestras
play about 150K, I have been told by several people that have those jobs.
Seconds make a small fraction of that. So how many orchestras are "major" enough
to pay that money? Are we talking 8? 15? How quickly do we drop to a more
workman like wage of 50K that is paid in the middle markets and then to 30K or
less down to volunteer players in the smaller city or regional orchestras?
Another question a person concerned with the money might ask. How often do those
jobs turnover. This is easier to find out. We can look at those jobs and see
many are held for 20 years and more. When someone leaves those jobs are they
replaced by someone new or a principal from a smaller orchestra? In other words
if one is very good and might someday earn the big dollars might they have to
serve at a much lower pay to stay in the system for 10 or 20 years until an
opening happens? When the opening occurs how big is line for the audition? 20?
100? 1000? Last and one that may touch many on this forum how many of those jobs
go to a women? Practically none? I suppose looking at a future in playing an
instrument is almost sacreligous. It isn't about food on your plate and roof
over your head. Its more like a calling, like a nun. I would never want to rain
on anyones parade but I would hate to see the Vegas odds of a first chair female
flute player in a middle or high school band ever playing for a major orchestra
and earning principal money of over 100K. Your probably more likely to
accomplish the goal of one day walking on Mars. Your probably more likely to
star in a major motion picture. Your probably be more likely to be hit by
lightning on consecutive days. As they say only go into show business if there
is nothing else you heart will let you do. So excuse me for letting my male and
practical side interfere with the artist and female thinking but the answers to
these questions would be interesting to find, except for those who close their
eyes because they are afraid to see.

[AG950Flute]

Flute Diddy,
I appreciate your honest and realistic opinion of the music world, but at the
same time I think it is important to encourage those who have that dream of
becoming a musician and to chase after that dream. I have been rejected enough
and told once to consider pursuing a different career path to want to fight even
harder to become what I want to be. The audition process is difficult, yes, but
it is not sexist nor is it racist. There is curtain between the person
auditioning and the audition committee. Often women are asked to remove their
shoes so the committee can't the high heels on the floor. And the audition
committee does not have any resumes in front of them or names, all they are
given are numbers. And the person auditioning is not allowed to speak, if they
have a question they must ask it to the "room monitor" who then asks the
committee. Often those with prior orchestral experience do have an edge.
Sometimes they may be invited out to the audition and not have to go through the
preliminary round. Often you can tell in their playing as well that they are
familiar with playing in an ensemble. However, that is NOT to say that new
people who have never held a job in a professional orchestra don't have a
chance. A friend of mine from school has been in the finals for a few orchestra
positions in the last couple months and he's been going for pretty big
well-paid orchestras. When a job does become available, yes, people usually go
in hordes. I've never done an orchestral audition before, but currently there
are several openings in orchestras that I will be sending my resume to because
the most important thing in taking auditions is experience and knowing what to
expect. In terms of playing in an orchestra that pays over 100K a year, I think
there are more than 20....but, you have to remember even in the lower paying
jobs many people teaching privately and earn money that way at all. Anyway,
that's all I have time for today. I'm off to see Emmanuel Pahud!!!!!

[krichards]

Now here's
someone with a dream and a healthy dose of optimism, but who is also pretty
realistic about the profession at the same time. With that kind of attitude, you
should go far! It sounds like the audition process is far more objective than
most other selection processes one would experience elsewhere in his/her life.
Who ever heard of a job interview where you were judged solely on your ability
to get the job done - where age, race and gender don't enter into the
evaluation process at all? Personally, I've not experienced that kind of bias
too much in my career (not music!), but I know it exists. I consider myself
fortunate in that regard. Nice to hear from someone in the know on the topic -
thanks Courtney!

[FluteDiddy]

If a person
posting in a flute chat forum says it is extremely difficult to obtain the goal
of principal in a major orchestra causes you to quit, thank him. If you(general
you not you Courtney) give up because of what I say you don't have the
commitment nor strong enough desire to survive the audition process anyway. Read
stories of the people that make and you will find many that said they made
because when they were told to give up the dream they became even more
determined to achieve their goal. As far as sexist or racist, I am just asking
questions. You say there are 20 top paying (US?) orchestra principal jobs. Fine,
a few more than my estimate. The more the better. How many are held by females?
Blacks? Latin or hispanic? How many by white males? I am just asking the
question. But somehow the overwhelming number are held by men. So are men
better? More persistant? Is there an old boys network? We do know about what
10-1 girls to boys start playing flute.(again an estimate) Why do we end up with
almost every top job and every famous flute player being Male. With do respect
to women like Alexa Still and Ms Larsen, When you talk the greats Pahud, Galway,
Bennet and recent past Baker and Rampal. Pretty overwhelming for a feminine
instrument(another topic) But shouldn't these facts be fair game for
discussion? Shouldn't a flute player be able to have the facts just like an
engineering or medical student? Excellent point that principals in
secondary(smaller cities) orchestras that may make 50K or more can make that
much again by teaching or other activities such as representing a flute maker.
But again shouldn't a person considering a 200K education have the facts? It
takes a tough hide to make it in show biz and if my blaring some bright lights
of reality in your face punctures your hide, you better think again how badly
you really wanted it.

[admin]

Flute Diddy,
Please try to be a bit more considerate in the tone of your posts to others
since it may offend them. Also, for the sake of flute playing, it is generally
not thought of as show biz, especially in the classical world. you are right
about many things you have said, but please keep in mind that we need more music
in this world so we should support both music and each other.

[AG950Flute]

Flute Diddy,
Here's a link that lists probably the majority of every orchestra in the world
with all the flute players. It's updated fairly frequently, so I have to
believe it is relatively correct. I thought this would be the best way for you
to look at the ratio of men to women. Have fun!! [:)]
http://www.larrykrantz.com/sections.htm

[FluteDiddy]

Now the admin
doesn't like truth about how tough it is to make it as flute performer because
it might make less music in the world? Sorry but the real world is more Simon
than Paula. I am sure you would tell Simon to be nice and not truthful and just
be thrilled with the pc nonsense of Paula. Courtney I have been reading Larry's
site for years but don't recall stumbling onto that page before. Thanks for the
link. Glad to see how well women are doing in the smaller and secondary
orchestras. You could say they almost dominate those positions. I find that
wonderful and equal opportunity is on its way and the ol boy network has broken
down. Of course at first glance the major jobs with the big paychecks are still
a mans world. It also reminds you of just how little we need to worry about
music not being supported as admin does. Thanks Courtney through our exchanges
of information, experiences, opinions and views all will become more
knowledgable and better able to decide their own future fully informed and
thought out. As far as you have come you must be a wonderful and talent flutist.
I wish you all the luck. Mr(s) admin, like it or not playing an instrument is
entertainment and even worse it isn't entertainment that pays for itself in the
economy but depends greatly on donations. The economy is just like show biz
where a few at the top earn a great deal, maybe more than the economies would
dictate. And those of lessor talent or abilities or just less fortune make
little or no money. Pops sell tickets and classical leaves empty seats and more
dependence on donation is what I recently heard a conductor say. When we strive
to put our nose in the air and pretend classical music is some higher ground we
harm ourselves, demean the classical composer and reduce the audience that hears
the music. In truth it is all entertainment chasing the same dollar and limited
time alotment the public has available. The less we draw a distinction between
classical music and other entertainment and let it survive on its beauty and
quality, the more likely people will listen. The only reason to have the
attitude that Classical music is some holy thing that needs help and cant stand
on its own merit is to convince rich old people to donate. But then again these
are opinions you wont like hearing, I can only tell you one thing, the quest for
truth will set us all free. And hiding it to make people feel protected only
hurts them

[FluteDiddy]

at the same
time I think it is important to encourage those who have that dream of becoming
a musician and to chase after that dream. I have been rejected enough and told
once to consider pursuing a different career path to want to fight even harder
to become what I want to be. Great words Courtney but everytime I shed the light
of reality people jump on me saying it maybe true but it will discourage people.
Seems it just makes the real people that should make it like yourself to work
harder. Its part of the process like auditions to separate the wheat from the
weeds. Making music for your own and your families enjoyment is wonderful.
Thinking you are a great singer or flutist and will someday play with the Berlin
Philharmonic should be reserved for that one in a million

[Kim]

Courtney~ I
just wanted to say that I think you wonderful outlook on things. You are both
realistic but yet optimistic. I think that is a good thing for the younger flute
players here to see whether they are looking at career in flute or something
else. Kim

[FluteDiddy]

I agree on
Courtney I think all my posts have praised her accomplishments and information
she brings. There is almost nothing I disagree with her on. as far as It's not
what you say.... its how you say it. That basically is the Bill Clinton mantra.
Its politics as usual. Its truth be darned, lets make nice and be PC even if its
all lies. It greatly explains the difference in our opinions fluterlovermomma.
It's not what you say.... its how you say it. that depends on what the
definition of what 'is' is. Its the same old flim flam. Give me honesty and I
will handle it if isn't a compliment. To find out later is much worse. It IS
what you say AND how you say it. How much better the world would be with that
much more honest approach. Ok Admin you probably will want to remove that as its
philisophical and too deep for most people.

[FluteDiddy]

noted

[FluteDiddy]

Courtney did
you do any research that shows if the average wage of Julliard grads is
significantly different from same degrees from a major University with a quality
music school? Or do you have a link as to what the background educationally is
of those that have orchestra jobs? I would guess they come from all different
schools with no one dominating?

[Kim]

Penny/Flutediddy~ Ya know I have been working very hard to refrain from
posting to you but I would like to point out a couple things. First of all
everyone knows that I am posting as Kim now so why the need to refer to me as
fluterlovermomma ? Second of all why are you writing to me at all. I wrote a
post to Courtney and you felt the need to pick on my signature line and you have
accused me of picking fights? Lastly, the reason I did decide to reply to you
after refraining from doing so....is so that someone can report this post of
mine and then admin can see for themselves the trouble that you repeatedly bring
here. Admin feel free to browse todays posts and see how many times
Penny/Flutediddy has been argumentitive or offensive all under the cover of just
giving an opinion. Kim [quote] ---------------- On 3/20/2004 10:59:08 AM I agree
on Courtney I think all my posts have praised her accomplishments and
information she brings. There is almost nothing I disagree with her on. as far
as It's not what you say.... its how you say it. That basically is the Bill
Clinton mantra. Its politics as usual. Its truth be darned, lets make nice and
be PC even if its all lies. It greatly explains the difference in our opinions
fluterlovermomma. It's not what you say.... its how you say it. that depends on
what the definition of what 'is' is. Its the same old flim flam. Give me
honesty and I will handle it if isn't a compliment. To find out later is much
worse. It IS what you say AND how you say it. How much better the world would be
with that much more honest approach. Ok Admin you probably will want to remove
that as its philisophical and too deep for most people. ----------------
[/quote]