SankyoCF401 Artist: Should I?

[WalterSK]

Hi: I'm a new forum member, and retired. First career was theory/composition professor, then clinical psychologist. Played at flute playing decades ago, now just went back to it and find that I love it and have the discipline to focus on the needed practice. I'm currently playing a student flute that is starting to fight me. I've decided to skip the "step-up" flutes and go to something at the entry-level professional flute. I've narrowed the choices down to these:

Altus 907, Muramatsu EX, Miyazawa 202, and Sankyo CF401 Artist. Apparently, the Sankyo is the same flute as the CF401, but half the price. It is a new flute with the same specs as the plain CF401 except that the Split E, C# trill key, and the C# roller are not available. I don't know whether the G tone-hole donut comes with it as it does with the plain CF401.

The CF401 Artist flute is available on line only, at Woodwind & Brass, Musician's Friend, etc. It can be returned within 45 days with only a $10 sanitizing fee. The basic CF401 now sells for about $9000, while the CF401 Artist is $4500, at the upper end of my budget.

It is sterling throughout, and would come with Sankyo's RT1 headjoint, which supposedly emphasizes the low octave color and dynamics, rather than being balanced for all registers. However, if it turns out that I don't like it, Sankyo's other headjoints are available for $800, and the flute would still be thousands less than the plain CF401.

I'm very tempted to order one and try it. Any thoughts?

[fluteguy18]

I'm generally hesitant about purchasing instruments sight unseen from online companies. While I have no problem ordering certain products from these two companies in particular, I would be very hesitant ordering instruments of this caliber from them. But, my opinion is mostly formed from information gathered secondhand rather than firsthand experience. It's mostly related to information I've heard regarding their instrument sourcing and maintenance. Generally I have found that if something is deeply discounted, there's usually a reason. Sometimes it's because of a problem, or sometimes sellers are just trying to liquidate inventory.

[WalterSK]

Thanks...I've been wrestling with this. I have emails from the place I would order it from saying that it is brand new, untried by others, and that I absolutely would be able to return it. I also checked Better Business Bureau which gave them an A+ rating, for whatever that's worth. My plan is that if the flute looks new and plays as I hope, I would bring it to a good flute guy here in NY and have it checked and send it back if he/she feels it is a dud, and have it optimized if it is a keeper. I must admit that a good part of me us wanting to respond to my fear by cutting and running, but I've always been good at overriding my better judgment.

[Kaylyn]

You may want to call the store before ordering this flute. I actually came across one one day on their website for $49.99. Yes, you read that right. Someone was marking the prices wrong or it was a computer glitch or something, which I found out after I called them. More than likely this is a real price, but I would question why it's being so deeply discounted.

Not that buying on eBay is any less of a risk, but a quick search on the Sankyo Artist has one in mint condition for $4000/best offer. Just in case you decide that is what you want to buy. They are great flutes, but I play one (the Silver Sonic) so I'm biased.

[WalterSK]

You may want to call the store before ordering this flute. I actually came across one one day on their website for $49.99. Yes, you read that right. Someone was marking the prices wrong or it was a computer glitch or something, which I found out after I called them. More than likely this is a real price, but I would question why it's being so deeply discounted.

I've been exchanging emails with the vendor, and have asked many specific questions about whether this is a new flute, what paperwork comes with it, whether the flute is marked with 401, and assorted other queries. Each response at least said the right thing. I now have their statements in the emails, as well as a screen shot of their details of the flute and price, so if I run into problems they can't deny what they told me.

I also spent a large chunk of time trying a CF401 with the same headjoint (RT-1) and find that the tone I can get in the low register is beyond what I had hoped for. Also, the high end was sweet and required less breath than I thought, so whatever tradeoff for the low register emphasis of the HJ, it is not a negative for me in the high range. I also tried 2 other Sankyo HJ's, the ST-2 and RT-2, and found that the RT-1 does what I want.

I also tried the Mura EX, which was a close second for me, and the Miazawa 202, which I didn't care for in the upper register (for me, anyway,) I also tried a couple of Powells with several headjoints, and liked the fingering action very much but would still go with the Sankyo 401 or Mura EX.

Tomorrow I'm going to call the spokesperson for the Sankyo distributor in the US, who might have some useful input on this flute. I'm leaning toward taking a chance, especially after playing the flutes today. As long as I can try the flute, have it looked at by a flute tech, and return it, I think I will be OK.

[WalterSK]

You may want to call the store before ordering this flute. I actually came across one one day on their website for $49.99. Yes, you read that right. Someone was marking the prices wrong or it was a computer glitch or something, which I found out after I called them. More than likely this is a real price, but I would question why it's being so deeply discounted.

I've been exchanging emails with the vendor, and have asked many specific questions about whether this is a new flute, what paperwork comes with it, whether the flute is marked with 401, and assorted other queries. Each response at least said the right thing. I now have their statements in the emails, as well as a screen shot of their details of the flute and price, so if I run into problems they can't deny what they told me.

I also spent a large chunk of time trying a CF401 with the same headjoint (RT-1) and find that the tone I can get in the low register is beyond what I had hoped for. Also, the high end was sweet and required less breath than I thought, so whatever tradeoff for the low register emphasis of the HJ, it is not a negative for me in the high range. I also tried 2 other Sankyo HJ's, the ST-2 and RT-2, and found that the RT-1 does what I want.

I also tried the Mura EX, which was a close second for me, and the Miazawa 202, which I didn't care for in the upper register (for me, anyway,) I also tried a couple of Powells with several headjoints, and liked the fingering action very much but would still go with the Sankyo 401 or Mura EX.

Tomorrow I'm going to call the spokesperson for the Sankyo distributor in the US, who might have some useful input on this flute. I'm leaning toward taking a chance, especially after playing the flutes today. As long as I can try the flute, have it looked at by a flute tech, and return it, I think I will be OK.

[WalterSK]

Well, I spoke to Liz at Sankyo. She knew of the particular flute and vendor and said she would not discourage getting the flute. She said it was a new but discontinued flute, and that Sankyo would not honor it as a new warranty but since it is returnable, and could be covered by the vendor's warranty it is not really much of a risk.

I ordered the flute and was told, again, that it was in an unopened box and had not been sent out and returned. I did order the 3-year warranty from the vendor, which he said includes maintenance and repair or replacement even for accident. Also he said they could authorize payment for maintenance locally unless it was for a major repair. Anyway, wish me luck on this. I'll post after I get the flute and let you all know how it goes.

[fluteguy18]

If it has been sitting in its original unopened box from the factory, it will most definitely need serviced before it will play to its true potential. Congrats though! Sankyo is a great brand, and I'm sure once the initial set-up is finished, it will be a great flute for you.

[WalterSK]

Well, I got it today via UPS. While the blurb from Woodwinds & Brasswinds had said Sankyo CF401 Artist, this one simply says Sankyo CF401 on the cardboard box as well as on the flute, same as the current model, with no reference to Artist. It came with the RT-1 headjoint as advertised, and a warranty card from Sankyo in Japan. It says if I need warranty work to refer it to the store where it was purchased, and to send the card to register the flute with Sankyo.

It also came with a slippery little hard case covered with what my wife determined by a sniff test was leather. That was in a padded bag with a handle, which my wife thinks is vinyl. Neither the bag nor the case has any logo or other identifying information.

The pads seem to have no indentations yet from the tone holes, but the action seems smooth and the notes sound with minimal pressure on the keys. No noisy keys, and my wife heard a fuller sound from this flute than from my other one (would you believe an open hole, b-footed Jean-Baptiste?)

Unfortunately, while nervously waiting for the UPS delivery I tired my lips out on the old flute so will have to wait 'til tomorrow to give the Sankyo a fair trial.

I had also been using a BoPep finger saddle for my left index finger, as well as a Thumb Port for my right hand. I'm going to try to get used to no Thumb Port, and I am afraid to use the BoPep for fear of scratching the Sankyo. The silver seems a lot more slippery than the old flute, though.

One question, though: The box says the flute has NEL, which is Sankyo's doughnut that is supposed to be in the G hole, to facilitate the high E. However, I can't see anything in the G hole. How do I know if it is there?

[JButky]

Well, I got it today via UPS. While the blurb from Woodwinds & Brasswinds had said Sankyo CF401 Artist, this one simply says Sankyo CF401 on the cardboard box as well as on the flute, same as the current model, with no reference to Artist. It came with the RT-1 headjoint as advertised, and a warranty card from Sankyo in Japan. It says if I need warranty work to refer it to the store where it was purchased, and to send the card to register the flute with Sankyo.

One question, though: The box says the flute has NEL, which is Sankyo's doughnut that is supposed to be in the G hole, to facilitate the high E. However, I can't see anything in the G hole. How do I know if it is there?

Sounds like a winner. The old 401 was known as the Artist model. no problem there.

The NEL is in G# tone hole. Not the one you put you finger on for G, the unfingered one next to it. If you look in the hole, there's an insert with a smaller hole in it.

http://www.sankyoflute.com/img/2006-2/nel.gif

[WalterSK]

The NEL is in G# tone hole. Not the one you put you finger on for G, the unfingered one next to it. If you look in the hole, there's an insert with a smaller hole in it.
http://www.sankyoflute.com/img/2006-2/nel.gif

Thanks for the link. I found the NEL insert, I think. While it's hard to see into the tone hole, I think I see the yellow-white insert--it's pretty deep into the hole, and it's not a reflection of the pad, since it doesn't seem to move when I move the key that closes it.

What are the pluses and minuses of NEL compared to the Split E option?

Also: how can I check the serial number of the flute to determine its date of manufacture?

[JButky]

What are the pluses and minuses of NEL compared to the Split E option?

Also: how can I check the serial number of the flute to determine its date of manufacture?

The NEL partially fills in the duplicate G# tone hole partially eliminating the double vented note without adding any mechanism. The split E mechanism completely closes the duplicate G# hole so High E is vented as it should. NEL 70% better, split E 100% better. Being a donut shape, some people complain that it slightly lowers the second octave A a bit.

Give the serial # to Sankyo and ask..

[WalterSK]

Give the serial # to Sankyo and ask..

Thanks for the infor on NEL and Split E. I could not find any way to contact Sankyo other than Liz V, so I sent her the info on this flute and asked her about finding the manufacturing date or rough age of the flute.

So far I like the flute although it will take some getting used to compared to the one I had been using.

[WalterSK]

Okay! Heard from Liz at Sankyo that this flute was made in February, 2013--not ancient! It also does have the NEL (High E Facilitator), and I am getting used to the headjoint. Smaller embouchure moves between the 1st and 2nd octaves, with less air than my old flute. Same with the 3rd octave: less air but greater air speed. I'm beginning to get what I consider really nice sound out of this flute.

When I go back to the Jean Baptiste open hole I now hear a "big," kind of hollow tone that leaves very little room for tonal or dynamic change by comparison. It also gets progressively thinner as I go from the lower octave through the middle and then the 3rd. And when I hit the sweet spot on the new flute the tone is rich. (Of course I coulda bought a bunch of Jean Baptiste flutes for what I paid for the new one!)

I'm not knocking the Jean Baptiste, though. It served me well for getting back into flutistry.