Difficulty with playing C1
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
Difficulty with playing C1
Hello, I rented my 1st flute (a Gemeinhardt 2NP) 1 week ago. It took a couple of days, but I finally got some notes out of it! After one week, though, my fingers are still cramping so bad that I can only practice for a few minutes at a time - is this normal? My biggest difficulty right now, though, is playing C1. I'm trying to practice the C scale -from C1 to C8. I can get every note except for C1. I've tried blowing harder, faster, anything! What could I be doing wrong? Could it be a problem with the flute? I am 36 years old and this is my first attempt at playing the flute. I'm having a ball, but just really frustrated right now with C1. Thanks for any help you can give me. Also, as a beginner, what do you thing about getting the inexpensive flutes that you can find on ebay? I can't afford to pay $200+ for a flute, but I really want to stick with it. THanks!
Judy
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powayflute01
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:29 pm
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Hello and welcome to the board, Judy!
Some slight finger cramping might be normal for beginners, but what you're describing does not sound normal. You might be tensing your hands too much and you may need to reconsider your hand positioning. Your right hand should look like it is making sort of a "C"; your fingers should be relaxed and curved while your thumb is placed on the underside of your flute. Try to make your hands as relaxed as possible; you should not have cramps due to tension. If you feel that you are still cramping up, try moving your hand positioning around (for example, you might need to bring your wrist up or move your thumb to the right or left) until you do not get cramps when you play. If you do get cramps though, you should probably stop playing for an hour or so or until they go away.
As for your second question, I need a little clarification before I can help you out. When we refer to notes as C2 or D3 or G1, the number denotes the octave they are in. When you say C1, do you mean the C that uses the first finger on your left hand and your right pinky (known actually as C2) or do you mean the C that uses all fingers (the real C1)? I thought you might be confused because you mentioned a C8 and there is no such note in the range of the flute.
And personally, I wouldn't buy a flute off Ebay. I believe there are people on this board who have, but they tend to be poorly made. If you are interested in purchasing a flute and you don't want to spend more than a couple hundred dollars, I would consider purchasing a student model flute from a company such as Armstrong, Yamaha or Gemeinhardt. You could probably get a pretty good deal on a used flute, too. Check your local newspaper's classified ads or http://www.usedflutes.com to look for them.
Sorry if some of this is confusing--lemme know if I can clear anything up.
--Kala
Some slight finger cramping might be normal for beginners, but what you're describing does not sound normal. You might be tensing your hands too much and you may need to reconsider your hand positioning. Your right hand should look like it is making sort of a "C"; your fingers should be relaxed and curved while your thumb is placed on the underside of your flute. Try to make your hands as relaxed as possible; you should not have cramps due to tension. If you feel that you are still cramping up, try moving your hand positioning around (for example, you might need to bring your wrist up or move your thumb to the right or left) until you do not get cramps when you play. If you do get cramps though, you should probably stop playing for an hour or so or until they go away.
As for your second question, I need a little clarification before I can help you out. When we refer to notes as C2 or D3 or G1, the number denotes the octave they are in. When you say C1, do you mean the C that uses the first finger on your left hand and your right pinky (known actually as C2) or do you mean the C that uses all fingers (the real C1)? I thought you might be confused because you mentioned a C8 and there is no such note in the range of the flute.
And personally, I wouldn't buy a flute off Ebay. I believe there are people on this board who have, but they tend to be poorly made. If you are interested in purchasing a flute and you don't want to spend more than a couple hundred dollars, I would consider purchasing a student model flute from a company such as Armstrong, Yamaha or Gemeinhardt. You could probably get a pretty good deal on a used flute, too. Check your local newspaper's classified ads or http://www.usedflutes.com to look for them.
Sorry if some of this is confusing--lemme know if I can clear anything up.
--Kala
Haha, this one is my favorite: :shock:
[size=75]I <3 LXA[/size]
[size=75]I <3 LXA[/size]
Stay away from that Ebay stuff! 
If you're set on a NEW flute, try to find a dealer that sells Conn-Selmer products (should be easy to find). They started marketing a new student line called Prelude. The list rice for this flute is about $350, but you can usually buy it for $250 or less. (Compare this to prices for the next level of quality in student flutes--Armstrong, Gemeinhardt, etc.---they're currently listing at around $750, and being sold usually around $550.) It's not an incredibly fantastic flute, but it's far better than those mystery flute things! It's made for Selmer in, I think, Taiwan, but this is still an American company, so repair parts are available, and they'll stand behind their product with some kind of warranty. The tone is light (not necessarily unattractive), but the intonation seems ok. A better bargain might be a gently-used Armstrong or Yamaha from the classified section of your newspaper. Often, you can find these for under $300. Pay less if the flute needs significant repairs, such as a repad, which usually costs around $150-$250 for a student flute, depending where you live. After such a repair, however, your flute should play like a new one. Good luck! 
If you're set on a NEW flute, try to find a dealer that sells Conn-Selmer products (should be easy to find). They started marketing a new student line called Prelude. The list rice for this flute is about $350, but you can usually buy it for $250 or less. (Compare this to prices for the next level of quality in student flutes--Armstrong, Gemeinhardt, etc.---they're currently listing at around $750, and being sold usually around $550.) It's not an incredibly fantastic flute, but it's far better than those mystery flute things! It's made for Selmer in, I think, Taiwan, but this is still an American company, so repair parts are available, and they'll stand behind their product with some kind of warranty. The tone is light (not necessarily unattractive), but the intonation seems ok. A better bargain might be a gently-used Armstrong or Yamaha from the classified section of your newspaper. Often, you can find these for under $300. Pay less if the flute needs significant repairs, such as a repad, which usually costs around $150-$250 for a student flute, depending where you live. After such a repair, however, your flute should play like a new one. Good luck! Thank you for your replies! It's so great to have people willing to help out.
The C note that I'm referring to is the C1 will ALL the fingers. That tiny little bar is pressed with my right pinky finger, closing off the air holes to the end of the flute. And all of my other fingers & right thumb are pressing keys on the flute as well with this note. Nothing comes out. But, if I lift off of that tiny bar (for note D), I get a great sounding note. Same as for continuing up the scale - E, F, G, A, B, etc. I can even shakily reach the next octave with these notes (I was thrilled with that!). I don't know if I should take the flute back and see if they have another one that I can rent instead? Or is it just me?
Most of my hand cramping is in the left hand, and mostly when all those fingers (or most) are used. It's not just uncomfortable, it really cramps! So, I put down the flute for a few minutes, but I can't take it for long before I pick it back up again - it's addictive! I'll try to rotate my hands a bit like you said and see what I can come up with. I don't know if this flute (Geimenhardt 2np) is an offset? I read that those are better for people with small hands - and I do have very small hands. Maybe that's my problem?
Thank you so much for the advice on buying a flute. I'm going to try to look for a used Armstrong or Conn-Selver. I figured I'd see if they come in offset style. Also, does it matter if it's silver plated or nickel plated?
I really wish that I could take lessons, but I already have 2 kids taking music lessons (trumpet & guitar), and I just can't afford it right now. Possibly lessons every other week, but I don't think that's available. Any suggestions for self-teaching guides? I'm going to look for the Trevor Wye books. I've been doing the video lessons on fluteland. They've been helpful.
Again, Thank you so much! I have 4 kids 8 and under, and I finally decided to do something that was just for ME - but I'm finding that it's not so easy to do alone.
Judy
The C note that I'm referring to is the C1 will ALL the fingers. That tiny little bar is pressed with my right pinky finger, closing off the air holes to the end of the flute. And all of my other fingers & right thumb are pressing keys on the flute as well with this note. Nothing comes out. But, if I lift off of that tiny bar (for note D), I get a great sounding note. Same as for continuing up the scale - E, F, G, A, B, etc. I can even shakily reach the next octave with these notes (I was thrilled with that!). I don't know if I should take the flute back and see if they have another one that I can rent instead? Or is it just me?
Most of my hand cramping is in the left hand, and mostly when all those fingers (or most) are used. It's not just uncomfortable, it really cramps! So, I put down the flute for a few minutes, but I can't take it for long before I pick it back up again - it's addictive! I'll try to rotate my hands a bit like you said and see what I can come up with. I don't know if this flute (Geimenhardt 2np) is an offset? I read that those are better for people with small hands - and I do have very small hands. Maybe that's my problem?
Thank you so much for the advice on buying a flute. I'm going to try to look for a used Armstrong or Conn-Selver. I figured I'd see if they come in offset style. Also, does it matter if it's silver plated or nickel plated?
I really wish that I could take lessons, but I already have 2 kids taking music lessons (trumpet & guitar), and I just can't afford it right now. Possibly lessons every other week, but I don't think that's available. Any suggestions for self-teaching guides? I'm going to look for the Trevor Wye books. I've been doing the video lessons on fluteland. They've been helpful.
Again, Thank you so much! I have 4 kids 8 and under, and I finally decided to do something that was just for ME - but I'm finding that it's not so easy to do alone.
Judy
Judy
Sounds like you may have a leak in your low C key. Take the footjoint off and press the C 'roller' bar down - see if the connecting keys close completely. If there's even the slightest gap under the pad then that C won't sound.
Cramping hands also lead me to think that you have leaking keys in other parts of the flute. You shouldn't have to "press" the keys closed, it should be an absolute minimum of pressure. Without the flute, hold your hands as if the flute was there and wiggle them very gently - so that they move about 1/4 inch up and down - being aware of your hands and fingers being relaxed and gently curved. If this feels different from what you're doing *with* the flute then you need to either check the instrument for leaks or, if that's all in order, you may need to adjust your left hand position to be more ergonomic. Without seeing you in person this is hard to advise on, but you should experiment a little with arm and hand angles and find something which works better. I would also advise having at least one face-to-face lesson with a good flute teacher, just to iron out any potential problems before they become *real* problems!
Hope this helps.
Cramping hands also lead me to think that you have leaking keys in other parts of the flute. You shouldn't have to "press" the keys closed, it should be an absolute minimum of pressure. Without the flute, hold your hands as if the flute was there and wiggle them very gently - so that they move about 1/4 inch up and down - being aware of your hands and fingers being relaxed and gently curved. If this feels different from what you're doing *with* the flute then you need to either check the instrument for leaks or, if that's all in order, you may need to adjust your left hand position to be more ergonomic. Without seeing you in person this is hard to advise on, but you should experiment a little with arm and hand angles and find something which works better. I would also advise having at least one face-to-face lesson with a good flute teacher, just to iron out any potential problems before they become *real* problems!
Hope this helps.
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powayflute01
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:29 pm
- Contact:
It's not uncommon for people to have trouble with C1, although it's entirely possible that you may have a leak. It could be that you need to push your embochure more forward in order to get that note out. If it continues to be a concern, you may want to take it back to the music store to see if they can fix it or offer you a different flute.
Offset flutes do tend to work better for people with small hands. To tell if your flute is offset, look at the key that you would put your left ring finger on. If it is an offset flute, you should notice a small bar causing the key to protrude from the line of straight keys going down your flute. An inline flute will have all the keys lined up. To further clarify, here (http://www.miyazawa.com/articles/options1.htm) is a link to a miyazawa article which shows pictures of both and contains more information about them.
I wouldn't worry too much about silver plated vs nickel plated at this point in your playing career. Silver plating will give you a better tone quality and tends to be more expensive. Most student flutes are nickel plated, and since you're just starting to play and it's more cost effective I would go with that.
I agree with noseflute-- your flute might also have a leak or two in some other keys if you have to push down on them so hard for to produce notes. It could be that you're trying to hold the flute with your fingers and you need some arm/hand readjustments to support the flute better.
I would definitely get at least a couple of private lessons with an instructor--it could help so much! As for lessons every other week, my instructor offers lessons every other week, so there are definitely some out there (she does every week for children and every other week for college students and adults).
Four kids 8 and under? Wow! It's impressive that you find time to play the flute!
Offset flutes do tend to work better for people with small hands. To tell if your flute is offset, look at the key that you would put your left ring finger on. If it is an offset flute, you should notice a small bar causing the key to protrude from the line of straight keys going down your flute. An inline flute will have all the keys lined up. To further clarify, here (http://www.miyazawa.com/articles/options1.htm) is a link to a miyazawa article which shows pictures of both and contains more information about them.
I wouldn't worry too much about silver plated vs nickel plated at this point in your playing career. Silver plating will give you a better tone quality and tends to be more expensive. Most student flutes are nickel plated, and since you're just starting to play and it's more cost effective I would go with that.
I agree with noseflute-- your flute might also have a leak or two in some other keys if you have to push down on them so hard for to produce notes. It could be that you're trying to hold the flute with your fingers and you need some arm/hand readjustments to support the flute better.
I would definitely get at least a couple of private lessons with an instructor--it could help so much! As for lessons every other week, my instructor offers lessons every other week, so there are definitely some out there (she does every week for children and every other week for college students and adults).
Four kids 8 and under? Wow! It's impressive that you find time to play the flute!
Haha, this one is my favorite: :shock:
[size=75]I <3 LXA[/size]
[size=75]I <3 LXA[/size]
Nickel plating is very slippery-feeling. It also seems harder to keep the finish nice and free of fingerprints long-term. Certainly sounds like you've got more than one leak. We shouldn't have to squeeze our keys to produce a tone. A new student was experiencing this only last week. I finally asked her to go get a flute from the display case and hand hers to the repairman. She grabbed an Armstrong 80B and played easily to low B--surprise!! I guess her flute has been leaky for so long, she was unaware she could play those notes. 
Having grown up with three younger siblings and a frazzled mom, I appreciate your initiative. You definately need somehing that's 'just for you'. Could you find another student with whom you could alternate lesson weeks? I would surely try to do this in my studio; teachers just want to be able to count on a consistent schedule and income. As long as that lesson time is accounted for each week, a teacher likely wouldn't mind. It's harder for adults to find enough practice time each week to progress sometimes, but over two weeks there is usually enough. My husband is doing this now with his voice teacher.
Having grown up with three younger siblings and a frazzled mom, I appreciate your initiative. You definately need somehing that's 'just for you'. Could you find another student with whom you could alternate lesson weeks? I would surely try to do this in my studio; teachers just want to be able to count on a consistent schedule and income. As long as that lesson time is accounted for each week, a teacher likely wouldn't mind. It's harder for adults to find enough practice time each week to progress sometimes, but over two weeks there is usually enough. My husband is doing this now with his voice teacher. Well, with my husband's help, we discoverd that we had leaks in the C keys (foot joint). He bent the bar on the keys until they closed smoothly with minimal pressure. I was finally able to get the note out - yeah! I haven't had time to check out all the other keys for leaks, but I'm wondering if my problem is more that my hands are so small - I'll check the other keys tomorrow - it's been a busy day of Christmas shopping. Was it ok for my husband to bend the bar to fix the leak? Is there a book on how to fix or repair flutes for general maintenance? I'm really frustrated that my music store rented me a flute that was not in top condition.
I checked the site www.usedflutes.com and found someone who sells used flutes - he has an Armstrong 104 and a Gemeinhardt 2sp & Gemeinhardt 22sp that he said are all in good condition and sound good. Each sell for under $200. So I'm trying to decide between these flutes. I talked my husband into letting me have one for Christmas.
I'm going to talk to my music store about taking 1 or 2 starter lessons like you guys suggest to be sure that I'm on the right track. Also to see about the potential for every other week lessons, but I think that I should at least be sure that I'm holding and blowing into the flute correctly - better to correct problems now.
I'm so excited about my fluting venture! It's so good to have something that's just for me!
Thank you all so much, and please continue to send my way any other helpful info - you have all been such a blessing to me.
Judy
I checked the site www.usedflutes.com and found someone who sells used flutes - he has an Armstrong 104 and a Gemeinhardt 2sp & Gemeinhardt 22sp that he said are all in good condition and sound good. Each sell for under $200. So I'm trying to decide between these flutes. I talked my husband into letting me have one for Christmas.
I'm going to talk to my music store about taking 1 or 2 starter lessons like you guys suggest to be sure that I'm on the right track. Also to see about the potential for every other week lessons, but I think that I should at least be sure that I'm holding and blowing into the flute correctly - better to correct problems now.
I'm so excited about my fluting venture! It's so good to have something that's just for me!
Thank you all so much, and please continue to send my way any other helpful info - you have all been such a blessing to me.
Judy
Judy
Please be careful doing things like that! Instrument repair is a true, learned craft. Sometimes, a bent or misaligned key (caused by poor flute handling, like squeezing the keys while assembling) will cause a leak, but usually they're caused by improperly-seated pads (they don't sit flush with the rim of the hole and seal correctly). Your shop was inattentive sending a flute out like this 
, but on rare occassions they slip through the cracks. Maybe shop around for a good repair tech...ask a respected band director (preferably a woodwind player), or private teacher, or nearby college flute teacher if available. Try each of those flutes; if they'll let you try them all at once, comparison will be easier. I usually prefer the 104 to the Gemeinhardts (more accurate scale), but try them all. Sounds like you're on your way! They're young, but what kind of um, "help" can you get from your kids in being able to have a few minutes for your flute-playing? Sometimes kids can get inspired to pursue their own activities with passion if they grow up watching their parents enjoy special hobbies.
Instrument repair is a true, learned craft. Sometimes, a bent or misaligned key (caused by poor flute handling, like squeezing the keys while assembling) will cause a leak, but usually they're caused by improperly-seated pads (they don't sit flush with the rim of the hole and seal correctly). Your shop was inattentive sending a flute out like this , but on rare occassions they slip through the cracks. Maybe shop around for a good repair tech...ask a respected band director (preferably a woodwind player), or private teacher, or nearby college flute teacher if available. Try each of those flutes; if they'll let you try them all at once, comparison will be easier. I usually prefer the 104 to the Gemeinhardts (more accurate scale), but try them all. Sounds like you're on your way! They're young, but what kind of um, "help" can you get from your kids in being able to have a few minutes for your flute-playing? Sometimes kids can get inspired to pursue their own activities with passion if they grow up watching their parents enjoy special hobbies. Yeah, I wondered about the "bending" of the bar to fix the leak - I would have thought that the pads should have been readjusted, but I didn't know what my husband had done till after the fact. He's the type of person who has to "fix" everything. Especially once he saw how frustrated that I was.
I'm having so much fun with the flute now, though. I think the place where I rented the flute has a decent repair person; my son takes trumpet lessons there and he has done some "tweeks" on his trumpet in the past. I think that the flute probably just wasn't checked out well when it was returned last time.
I finally picked out and paid for my first trumpet - a used yamaha 225 SII. I heard so many good things about the yamaha on this forum, and found one from someone that I feel to be reputable on ebay - he says that he has them thoroughly checked over and "tuned", and even offers a 3 day warranty. He has 100% positive feedback. I feel pretty comfortable with that. I'm so excited! This is my Christmas present.
As for the kids - I can actually play while they are around since I can play standing up where the baby can't reach it. Actually, I get some practice in while she's in her high chair having lunch. And my son, the trumpet player, is proud of my progress. He was thrilled to hear me play "Mary Had a Little Lamb". My younger son (6 year old) decided to learn to play the guitar - this came the day after I rented the flute. My daughter (5 yr old) said soon after that she wanted to play an instrument, but she's already in dance class, so there's no money left for music lessons, so I told her that I'd teach her piano, but I think she just wants to have her own instrument. Some day.
Music is such a joy.
Thank you so much for your wisdom. I'm looking forward to my new flute and a lesson or two (maybe every other week).
Judy
I'm having so much fun with the flute now, though. I think the place where I rented the flute has a decent repair person; my son takes trumpet lessons there and he has done some "tweeks" on his trumpet in the past. I think that the flute probably just wasn't checked out well when it was returned last time.
I finally picked out and paid for my first trumpet - a used yamaha 225 SII. I heard so many good things about the yamaha on this forum, and found one from someone that I feel to be reputable on ebay - he says that he has them thoroughly checked over and "tuned", and even offers a 3 day warranty. He has 100% positive feedback. I feel pretty comfortable with that. I'm so excited! This is my Christmas present.
As for the kids - I can actually play while they are around since I can play standing up where the baby can't reach it. Actually, I get some practice in while she's in her high chair having lunch. And my son, the trumpet player, is proud of my progress. He was thrilled to hear me play "Mary Had a Little Lamb". My younger son (6 year old) decided to learn to play the guitar - this came the day after I rented the flute. My daughter (5 yr old) said soon after that she wanted to play an instrument, but she's already in dance class, so there's no money left for music lessons, so I told her that I'd teach her piano, but I think she just wants to have her own instrument. Some day.
Music is such a joy.
Thank you so much for your wisdom. I'm looking forward to my new flute and a lesson or two (maybe every other week).
Judy
Judy
.............
I didn't read all the replies so i dunno if u got the answer yet
well u have 2 blow really soft.
exuse me for typing in chat lingo lol
well u have 2 blow really soft.
exuse me for typing in chat lingo lol
I'm having trouble with C1 as well. A strong, solid note seems very elusive right now, but I keep thinking it will come in time. At the moment, it sounds more windy than the rest of the notes in that register, takes more embouchure experimentation to attain, and I can't produce the same volume. I can't make the note as loud, I mean, as the other notes. I'm playing around with a couple of hymns that start with C1, and this is really bugging me. I wish I could achieve the same quality with C1 that I can with the other notes in that register.
The more I read though, the more I think this "C1 issue" is normal for the beginner. Is that right?
The more I read though, the more I think this "C1 issue" is normal for the beginner. Is that right?
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powayflute01
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:29 pm
- Contact:
Yeah, I used to have a lot of trouble with C1 when I was in the beginning stages of learning the flute. It shouldn't be too much trouble to play though--otherwise something might be wrong with your flute.
Long tones will REALLY REALLY help your C1.
Long tones will REALLY REALLY help your C1.
Haha, this one is my favorite: :shock:
[size=75]I <3 LXA[/size]
[size=75]I <3 LXA[/size]
Okay for long tones then. Thanks for the tip! I'm pretty sure the problem isn't with my flute. I can pull off a somewhat rich C1 on occasion at this point. There's just a little more effort involved.
I am also aware of the necessity of a good teacher. I've been working by myself thus far, but I won't continue the self-instruction method for long. I could be making mistakes that will become entrenched and more difficult to elimate over time, without a teacher to keep me in check.
None of the teachers in my childhood could have predicted that I would be willing to submit to that authority now.
I am also aware of the necessity of a good teacher. I've been working by myself thus far, but I won't continue the self-instruction method for long. I could be making mistakes that will become entrenched and more difficult to elimate over time, without a teacher to keep me in check.
None of the teachers in my childhood could have predicted that I would be willing to submit to that authority now.