To all
I have experimented with many different flutes and piccolos that I have found on the net. Some from ebay, others from various stores, NAMM shows etc.... I am also frequently asked about my opinions about such instruments. Here it goes.
Where are these instruments made?
Just about any place you can think of, but mostly China.
What is the level of quality of a Chinese made instrument?
Although over the years things have improved greatly with the quality of Chinese made instruments, the quality is still not as consistent as it could be. You may find a flute that is flawless, but the next one could be a night mare. You could wind up with a whole batch that are bad. Slowly the Chinese are coming up with ways to deal with quality control. This is their biggest problem. Some of the factories building these instruments do not even know how to properly make instruments. In the end, it all depends on the manufacturer.
Why is their such a price difference?
Materials and labor. The biggest problem with cheap instruments is not playability, but durability. Most of these cheaper instruments are made such that if you drop them, they are no good any more. Pads are another issue. Cheap pads just do not last long. Spring rods. On cheap instruments, they will wear out faster than on a mainstream flute, you can count on it!
One time i was a music store in Taiwan where a guy was playing on a Soprano saxophone. He puts it on a stand. A child ran through the store and knocked it over. After that, the sax had to be thrown out. It was more expensive to fix it than to replace it. Before this episode, it was a great playing, and great sounding instrument. If this were a mainstream horn, it would have atleast been worth the repair!
If their are all of these issues, why bother?
There are many reasons to by a lower price instrument.
1. Just starting out.
2. Not a serious player.
3. Low money supply
4. Like the cool colors!
5. Like ot experiment.
6. Marching band!
7. Playing in bars/clubs.
But, you must have a realistic expectations. No matter how good the advertisements look, you get what you pay for. Do not expect a Boston Legacy level Piccolo for a Venus price! Also expect the you may have to return a few of them to get one that you like. Another factor is care. I take good care of my cheap instruments, so they will last me for a while. But for a person who is not into doing regular care on their instrument, this is not a good route to go.
Can you recommend any cheap flutes/pics that are safe to buy?
Here are some with comments
Barrington -- I highly reccomend this brand. Good quality control, and durable.
Jinyin -- This is a good up and coming Chinese manufacturer. They get better and better every year. I own a student model flute they make. Mostly hand made. However, as their quality gets better, their price goes up. I think it is just a matter of time they will make a name for themselves!
Venus -- For the price Venus is a good deal. However, these are very delicate instruments Be prepared to send a couple back until you find one you like. Also, those wonderful colors eventually come off. Overall have a neat sound, and look good when they are new. I have just get one of the more recent ones, and they are also showing improvements over time.
Woodnote -- If you can find one of these, get it! You will not be sorry. These flutes are great. I played on at least a dozen of them at the NAMM show, and the quality if very good, and consistant. I also like the cut of the head joint. They do not make pics for production reasons. They also make good Recorders.
Cecilio -- Very similar to Venus
Band Now -- Very poor quality control. I played on at lease 6 of these before I found one that is playable. The only good thing is the dealers that sell them have good return policies!
Woodwind -- Very Good, and very underrated.
Selman -- These instruments are playable, and a little less cheap feeling than the Venus. The colors seem to last a lot longer on these also.
Rhythm/Hawk -- These are another one that keep getting better, but these flutes are getting harder to find.
I have tried others, but these are the ones that have stuck around for a while.
What dealers would you recommend?
I am not into advertising, but I will tell you who I have dealt with.
Ebay-Music Wheel -- Great service, fast delivery. Bought mainly Venus stuff from them
Ebay-Sam the Music Man -- Fast delivery, honourable with return policy. Bought a 2 flutes and a blue trumpet for my son from them.
Ebay-Great Tunes Fast delivery, honourable with return policy. Many purchases
Ebay-Woodnote Music Never dealt with them through Ebay, always directly. Good quality instruments, good prices, great service.
Ebay - Hornseller - Fast delivery, honourable with return policy. Bought my Jinyin flute from them.
www.wwbw.com -- This place has to notch service, and a good variety of instruments is all price ranges. Very honourable return policy. Many purchases.
BE CAREFUL!!!!! Not everyone is honest. I have burnt my share of money on scams. Some of these sellers have decent ratings!
Should I save my money to get a better instrument?
That depends. How serious are you? What are you using it for? For a specific purpose like looks, or a starter instrument, maybe. However, if you are planning to step up to a better instrument, then yes I would save up for a better instrument. No matter how many instruments you will buy, you must always have at least one good one! Even if you have to buy one used. Play on the cool pink one, while you save your money for a good quality one.
Overall
Low Price instruments are not for everyone. However they do have their place. I buy instruments all of the time, and I think it is quite unfair to rule all low priced instruments completely out. Please understand there is also a difference is my opinion of what is playable, and what I prefer. If all of the keys move freely, there are no leaks, and I can play from the bottom note to the as high as I can go chromaticly, then it's playable. Now, if you ask me if I prefer my Yamaha 514 or my Blue Venus, well I think you will know the answer.
Hope this clears up a few things.
Flame on!
Phineas
Cheap Flute/Piccs...a non biased view.
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
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crazyaboutflute2393
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flutepicc06
- Posts: 1353
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Well in answer to your question "So, would a really cheap one work well?" Probably not. It will not work well, though it might work just well enough, and just long enough for you to get an idea of whether you are interested in purchasing a better piccolo. However, you can get reputable name brand piccolos for under $100 from eBay (such as Yamaha, Gemeinhardt, and Emerson, to name a few), so if you can spend $100, you would probably be better served buying a used name brand one (even if it needs a few repairs) than buying a cheap one that you KNOW will have to be replaced shortly. If you go that route, you will end up paying for 2 instruments (which will likely run you more than $100 anyway), one of which will shortly be useless, rather than one for under a hundred that could last you several years.
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fluttiegurl
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:05 pm
I have a few brief comments pertaining to the original statemnent made by Phineas. Though I do agree with you on most issues, I do not recommend these so called "cheap" instruments to beginners. In my past experiences, I have found that many students who start out on these get frustrated. Some even quit. The problem is that these beginners don't know enough about the instrument to tell that when there is a problem with the sound, it may be the instrument. They try harder, with the same results. For them, it is like banging their heads against a wall, and they get discouraged. They don't know how to care for a flute properly (in most cases), and don't understand the concept of how gently these instuments must be handled. When there is even the slightest leak, they generally don't understand that this problem can cause notes to not sound. Due to the delicate nature of the instruments, I do not know a single tech willing to work on them either, making it difficult to get even small problems fixed. It also concerns me a great deal that the metal on most (not all) of these instruments is extremely flexible, allowing for the bending of keys. This can also cause serious playing problems.
I have seen this happen over and over again (mainly in the local schools that I do clinics for), and it is not necessary. Rental programs make it reasonable for most students starting out. I also encourage my more advanced students to sell their old instruments when they upgrade to help make it possible for younger beginners who are starting out. They don't make a lot of money, but they at least get the trade-in value of the instruments (usually $100 - $150). I have also delt with "sponsors" who are generally adults looking to support the arts by donating their old instruments (plus the cost of repairs) or money to buy used ones. I live in an area with extremely diverse incomes, and I have never had problems helping young students find quality instruments to start on. For the area in which I work that is considered xtremely low income, I rely on the kindness of the flute community to help out. I have had several sponsors whom I do not know email me as they found out about this program and wanted to help out. Realizing that most of these flutes are not in top condition, I still feel that this is a much better solution.
For an adult who is not a serious musician, and knows/understands what he/she is getting into, I can see how these instruments can be useful, but for a child just starting out, I do not recommend them at all. It is important that we give yong musicians the opportunity to become great, even if they are not serious at first, and I believe that this is an important factor. These companies are making that harder for many of us, not to mention hat it is doing to out local music stores who have served us for generations and are closing their doors. The ones that I know just refuse to carry instruments that they deem to be substandard, and because of this, they are suffering.
I do occasionally deal on ebay (both as a buyer and a seller), and I agree that this is an incredible marketplace for all of us. I have three students who I helped buy quality instruments on ebay (for less than 1/2 what they would have paid), all with good experiences. I do not, however, recommend wwbw.com. The past seven instruments (mostly trials for students) that I have ordered from them have not been set up properly, needing major adjustments upon arrival. These were not cheap instruments, but quality made intermediate level flutes. Yes, I could blame this on the carrier service, but I order from several other companies frequently, and do not have this problem. I am also not impressed with the staff. They have never been able to answer my questions nor the questions of my students to my satisfaction. Though I do like their return policy, and have never had a problem returning anything.
If you want to try these out and want to try many, this is where to go!
I hope this doe snot offend in any way, as I value your opinions and generally agree with you. I just feel that these are issues that should be considered.
I have seen this happen over and over again (mainly in the local schools that I do clinics for), and it is not necessary. Rental programs make it reasonable for most students starting out. I also encourage my more advanced students to sell their old instruments when they upgrade to help make it possible for younger beginners who are starting out. They don't make a lot of money, but they at least get the trade-in value of the instruments (usually $100 - $150). I have also delt with "sponsors" who are generally adults looking to support the arts by donating their old instruments (plus the cost of repairs) or money to buy used ones. I live in an area with extremely diverse incomes, and I have never had problems helping young students find quality instruments to start on. For the area in which I work that is considered xtremely low income, I rely on the kindness of the flute community to help out. I have had several sponsors whom I do not know email me as they found out about this program and wanted to help out. Realizing that most of these flutes are not in top condition, I still feel that this is a much better solution.
For an adult who is not a serious musician, and knows/understands what he/she is getting into, I can see how these instruments can be useful, but for a child just starting out, I do not recommend them at all. It is important that we give yong musicians the opportunity to become great, even if they are not serious at first, and I believe that this is an important factor. These companies are making that harder for many of us, not to mention hat it is doing to out local music stores who have served us for generations and are closing their doors. The ones that I know just refuse to carry instruments that they deem to be substandard, and because of this, they are suffering.
I do occasionally deal on ebay (both as a buyer and a seller), and I agree that this is an incredible marketplace for all of us. I have three students who I helped buy quality instruments on ebay (for less than 1/2 what they would have paid), all with good experiences. I do not, however, recommend wwbw.com. The past seven instruments (mostly trials for students) that I have ordered from them have not been set up properly, needing major adjustments upon arrival. These were not cheap instruments, but quality made intermediate level flutes. Yes, I could blame this on the carrier service, but I order from several other companies frequently, and do not have this problem. I am also not impressed with the staff. They have never been able to answer my questions nor the questions of my students to my satisfaction. Though I do like their return policy, and have never had a problem returning anything.
If you want to try these out and want to try many, this is where to go!I hope this doe snot offend in any way, as I value your opinions and generally agree with you. I just feel that these are issues that should be considered.
Nii_Neko
For you, I would high recommend going up to at least 150. In this range you could get a Barrington, Woodnote or a Selmer Prelude(I have not tried the Selmer yet.) These brands a warranteed, are supported by repair techs and have a good return policy. Jinyin is an honorable mention, but they are starting to get a little more expensive.
http://www.wwbw.com
http://stores.ebay.com/woodnote-music
These are the cheap ones to get if you REALLY want one you know will work well. As Flutiegurl stated, do not rule out getting a used student model here are a couple of examples
http://cgi.ebay.com/Excellent-ARMSTRONG ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-C-Flute-B ... dZViewItem
These are just 2 example, I am sure there are many others if you look. Unless you know what to look for, I would be very careful about buying used instruments off Ebay. I have has good luck for the most part, but about 30% of the time, I have to do some kind of repair.
When you start getting below $100 dollars, you may get something that will work well, or you may not. If you as asking me about an instrument that works well, then these instruments are not for you.
fluttiegurl
My goal was not to promote the sales of cheap instruments, just to share my experiences with people. I do not mind responding to emails, but I have been getting alot of emails about these Ebay flutes lately. As far as WWBW.com, my experience with them has been totally the opposite. I have had to send things back before, but not frequently. Also, I am fortunate to live 4 hours driving time from their showroom, and ususally stop through there when I am on my way back and forth the my sisters house.
The thing that bugs me about threads like these is how some of these cheap instrument companies target their victims. Glitter. I was hoping my post would bridge the gap between finding a decent instrument that is cheap, and a cheap instrument that is junk. When someone asks me about buying a flute that is just too cheap, and I know they are a beginner, I try to lead them in a better direction if I can. I have found most people who have their mind made up will buy what they want anyway. All I can do is try to give them more information, and hope for the best. Would I recommend some lower price brands to a beginner? Yes I would, but only certain ones I know would be decent as I have said in this post.
One more thing. You are a lot of things Flutiegurl, but snobby is not one of them!
I have enjoyed reading your posts for years, and highly respect your opinion. I am the one that is a little strange.
Ronald
http://stores.ebay.com/woodnote-music
If you need anymore information, I will be back in the US in a few days. I still have contact numbers from the NAMM show!
Phineas
For you, I would high recommend going up to at least 150. In this range you could get a Barrington, Woodnote or a Selmer Prelude(I have not tried the Selmer yet.) These brands a warranteed, are supported by repair techs and have a good return policy. Jinyin is an honorable mention, but they are starting to get a little more expensive.
http://www.wwbw.com
http://stores.ebay.com/woodnote-music
These are the cheap ones to get if you REALLY want one you know will work well. As Flutiegurl stated, do not rule out getting a used student model here are a couple of examples
http://cgi.ebay.com/Excellent-ARMSTRONG ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Beautiful-C-Flute-B ... dZViewItem
These are just 2 example, I am sure there are many others if you look. Unless you know what to look for, I would be very careful about buying used instruments off Ebay. I have has good luck for the most part, but about 30% of the time, I have to do some kind of repair.
When you start getting below $100 dollars, you may get something that will work well, or you may not. If you as asking me about an instrument that works well, then these instruments are not for you.
fluttiegurl
My goal was not to promote the sales of cheap instruments, just to share my experiences with people. I do not mind responding to emails, but I have been getting alot of emails about these Ebay flutes lately. As far as WWBW.com, my experience with them has been totally the opposite. I have had to send things back before, but not frequently. Also, I am fortunate to live 4 hours driving time from their showroom, and ususally stop through there when I am on my way back and forth the my sisters house.
The thing that bugs me about threads like these is how some of these cheap instrument companies target their victims. Glitter. I was hoping my post would bridge the gap between finding a decent instrument that is cheap, and a cheap instrument that is junk. When someone asks me about buying a flute that is just too cheap, and I know they are a beginner, I try to lead them in a better direction if I can. I have found most people who have their mind made up will buy what they want anyway. All I can do is try to give them more information, and hope for the best. Would I recommend some lower price brands to a beginner? Yes I would, but only certain ones I know would be decent as I have said in this post.
One more thing. You are a lot of things Flutiegurl, but snobby is not one of them!
I have enjoyed reading your posts for years, and highly respect your opinion. I am the one that is a little strange.Ronald
http://stores.ebay.com/woodnote-music
If you need anymore information, I will be back in the US in a few days. I still have contact numbers from the NAMM show!
Phineas
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flutepicc06
- Posts: 1353
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:34 pm
Not really. In fine instruments, some players believe that the crown (which is what that cap is called) can affect tone slightly, but in a student piccolo, it would likely have little or no affect anyway. The piccolo, assuming the mechanism is in decent condition, and the embouchure hole and headjoint cork are intact, the piccolo should play fine.
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fluttiegurl
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:05 pm
Phineas,
Thank you for clearing up a few things for me, and thank you for the kind words I know the flute world can tend to be a little harsh, and I never want to come across that way as I have the highest respect for you and many here... we can all learn a great deal from one another as I have frequently 
Thank you for clearing up a few things for me, and thank you for the kind words
I know the flute world can tend to be a little harsh, and I never want to come across that way as I have the highest respect for you and many here... we can all learn a great deal from one another as I have frequently -
flutepicc06
- Posts: 1353
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 11:34 pm