Gold Lip Plate & Buying

FltnPicc_David · Post by **FltnPicc_David** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:10 pm

ALL-STATE: I am VERY happy with my audition. I wasn't nervous at all. I played my timed scales perfectly, my prepared exercises to even better than I expected I could do, my chromatic scale had one rough part but that's okay, sight-reading was okay as well, I mesed up on this unsuspected triplet section.

TOPIC: I'm getting a new upgrade flute soon! Preferable a Yamaha 461H or Yamaha Allegro 471. Anyways, does a gold lip plate effect sound/tone? Or is it just there for looks and presentation?

AND

If you buy straight from the company, will you get lower prices? I read somewhere that dealers spike up the original prices to make a profit.

angelic_devil · Post by **angelic_devil** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:16 pm

Congrats on your performance!

The gold plating on a lip is purely for allergenic or cosmetic reasons and will not effect the sound.

www.fluteworld.com has very good prices and should be lower then if you are to go buy a new flute from a local music store. They tend to jack up the prices. Hope that helps and best of luck to you in getting your new flute:)

fluttiegurl · Post by **fluttiegurl** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:52 pm

Sometimes, you do get a better deal buying direct. However, some companies do not allow that. Yamaha has a policy that does not allow KNOWN dealers to raise prices beyond a certain point, so everyone should have pretty much the same price (in a perfect world).

As said, gold lip plates do not effect tome, and if the lip plate is plated, it will wear off over time.

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:02 pm

Congrats on your audition!

Yeah, some companies allow you to purchase directly from them cheaper, but some dont. I tried to buy a miyazawa directly, and they would charge me the same price as my local dealer. I do know gemeinhardt allows you to buy from them cheaper, but I would be wary of this company as you well know.

The gold aspect is mostly for allergenic purposes, and appearance. The added weight of the gold will change the response and sound of the flute, but it is such a miniscule difference that you wont be able to notice it. Also, as previously stated, the gold will wear off over time. Normally, you can have it replated for less than $100. I have never had this procedure done, but I know that replating takes a while ( one of my friends had her picc lipplate replated, and it took over a week, and that was directly done with the company, and not through a dealer which takes even more time).

I do like gold plating. Normally it takes a long time to wear off. (my lip plate took over 3 years to show any kind of wear at all).

Also when upgrading, I had to learn this the hard way: try to buy an all solid silver instrument, not just one with only a silver head. You get more bang for your buck if you save up the little extra for an all silver flute.

angelic_devil · Post by **angelic_devil** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:14 pm

The added weight of the gold will change the response and sound of the flute, but it is such a miniscule difference that you wont be able to notice it.

Sorry, but that is not true. The gold is WAY too thin to add any kind of weight that would make even the slightest bit of difference in the sound. That is marketing hype talking.

Also when upgrading, I had to learn this the hard way: try to buy an all solid silver instrument, not just one with only a silver head. You get more bang for your buck if you save up the little extra for an all silver flute.

I have encountered all silver plated flutes that blew away a solid silver regular intermediate flute. It is the set up and design of the flute that makes it and the cut of the embouchure, not the amount of silver.

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:53 pm

Sorry Fluteguy, but I have to side with Angelic Devil on this one. Unless you are talking about a solid gold lip, she's absolutely right.

angelic_devil · Post by **angelic_devil** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:41 am

I am a HE.

flutegeek1992 · Post by **flutegeek1992** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:14 am

I too have to agree with with angelic_devil. While a lot of the time, a good solid silver flute plays better then a plated one, it depends upon the construction. A plated pearl blows my solid silver germeinhardt away. I have a gold plated liplate, but this isn't what affects the sound. the riser affects the sound. The flute I'm upgrading to has a solid silver body and headjoint, and a 10k lip plate and riser (not plated). I love this sound. A platinum riser is also gorgeous. But the weight will NOT be varied by a plated lip plate--it will be altered by something like a solid gold headjoint.

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:51 pm

let me correct my initial post. the plating does add weight (but it is such a miniscule difference we cant tell a difference, *in the thousandths of a pound or less*) because the plating has to weigh something, it can't be weightless, it simply defies logic. but I dont have the opinion that it noticeably changes the sound. If it does, the change is not audible on a human scale.

And in the bang for your buck comment, i am sorry that i did not clarify. You get more silver to the dollar. Not necc. meaning playability. So, in my opinion, you can buy a crap flute that is all silver, and buy a good plated one, and the plated one can play better.

but the weight thing is true. the gold weighs SOMETHING. saying that the plating doesnt weigh anything, is like saying that a sheet of paper is 2D. you can measure the thickness of paper. You can weigh a piece of gold leaf, even if it is only 5 or 6 atoms thick. It has a weight. So, this weight changes things ever so slightly, but we cant hear or feel a difference.

No, I didnt get this info from a marketing position either. I thought about it logically. I havent even read a campaign where they said anything about the gold plating making the sound better (although I am sure that there are some out there).

I know all of this seems over the top in getting into the technicalities, but I just had to clarify my initial post, and make my opinion clear. But, i think we all agree. Plating doesnt audibly change the sound, and solid silver instruments arent always better than plated instruments.

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:52 pm

let me correct my initial post. the plating does add weight (but it is such a miniscule difference we cant tell a difference, *in the thousandths of a pound or less*) because the plating has to weigh something, it can't be weightless, it simply defies logic. but I dont have the opinion that it noticeably changes the sound. If it does, the change is not audible on a human scale.

And in the bang for your buck comment, i am sorry that i did not clarify. You get more silver to the dollar. Not necc. meaning playability. So, in my opinion, you can buy a crap flute that is all silver, and buy a good plated one, and the plated one can play better.

but the weight thing is true. the gold weighs SOMETHING. saying that the plating doesnt weigh anything, is like saying that a sheet of paper is 2D. you can measure the thickness of paper. You can weigh a piece of gold leaf, even if it is only 5 or 6 atoms thick. It has a weight. So, this weight changes things ever so slightly, but we cant hear or feel a difference.

No, I didnt get this info from a marketing position either. I thought about it logically. I havent even read a campaign where they said anything about the gold plating making the sound better (although I am sure that there are some out there).

I know all of this seems over the top in getting into the technicalities, but I just had to clarify my initial post, and make my opinion clear. But, i think we all agree. Plating doesnt audibly change the sound, and solid silver instruments arent always better than plated instruments.

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:06 pm

angelic_devil wrote:I am a HE.

My mistake! Sorry!

MeLizzard · Post by **MeLizzard** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:15 pm

I can check the exact list price at work tomorrow, if you like. Just list the precise options you're looking at. These are basically the same flute, but not all dealers are authorized to carry Allegro. Flute World does NOT often offer the lowest price, and a couple hundred dollars isn't a big difference over the lifetime of an instrument. A wiser choice may be buying the flute for a few dollars more from a reputable dealer with whom you can maintain a good working relationship over several years--what if you need a last-minute repair or something? Often, the repairman in my store will do all sorts of smallish repairs (with quick turnaround time) for FREE, if the customer bought the instrument from us. A long-distance dealer can't help you in this way, so if you can buy the flute within reasonable driving distance, I'd try to do that. One of my boss's favorite phrases: "The internet provides great service!

". About the price, only less-reputable dealers raise the price above list (MSRP)--the days of markup, at least I thought, are over. There is an amount, called MAP, which is the lowest advertised price allowed by the manufacturer. Usually, a dealer can sell the instrument for a lower figure than MAP, but they can't put that in writing, like in the newspaper or anything.
Also, I must say that I could recommend many flutes to my students that are silver-head-silver-plate-body, over a lot of the all-silver-tube instruments in the same price range. Does a nearby dealer offer brands such as Miyazawa, Muramatsu, Altus, or others that make only flutes? Some of the silver-plated handmade flutes are terrific, for about the same price as a solid-silver Yamaha, Armstrong, or Emerson. If you're trying flutes made by band-instrument companies, maybe try an Armstrong Heritage (two different models). In my experience, the better of these play somewhat comparably to the Powell Sonare. You may wish to try the Yamaha 500s as well as the 400s, as the headjoint cut (EC) is different, and really changes the response. They're similarly-priced, as the 400 bodies are silver, and the 500 is a silver-head-plated-body model. As long as you're not using your flute as a baseball bat, durability should not be an issue. And, as the others said, the gold as you described it is purely cosmetic. It's good if you're allergic to nickel or silver, and some players just like the way it feels against their lips. Unless you polish it with one of those treated cloths, the plating should last a long time. Replating is usually a factory repair, requiring that your dealer send your instrument back to whomever made it. Also, solid gold lip plates are availavle from many makers, but I don't think Yamaha offers this, except on their custom models (800 or 900). A bit expensive.

Oh, congratulations, by the way!

FltnPicc_David · Post by **FltnPicc_David** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:17 pm

Okay, so I'll be getting my flute as at the Florida Flute Fair or a Flute Show! Both are here in January. Anyways, the 400 series has an EC cut HJ? The Yamah site says the 400s are paired with the CY-cut headjoint (unless their website hasnt been updated..) My mother is looking at the 600 series as well. She wants me to have an all solid silver or sterling silver (whats the difference, lol.) and thats what my private instructor advised.

And I have no idea what HJ is paired with the Allegro series...the site doesn't say so. Even tohugh I dont have allergic reactions to silver or silver-plated lip plates, the gold feature is attractive to me (lol) so I might get it.

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:22 pm

FltnPicc_David wrote:My mother is looking at the 600 series as well. She wants me to have an all solid silver or sterling silver (whats the difference, lol.) and thats what my private instructor advised.

The difference is in metal content. Sterling silver is 92.5% silver, with other metals mixed in for hardness, while solid silver (also called coin silver) is technically 90.0% silver. However, oftentimes the term "solid silver" is used to mean sterling silver, so it can become quite confusing to tell which is actually meant. If any mark exists on the flute (which on most upper line flutes they do not), it will likely take the form of a ".925" or "sterling" if it is sterling silver, or "silver" "solid silver" or "coin silver" if it is solid silver.

MeLizzard · Post by **MeLizzard** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:32 pm

The 500s have ECs, and I'm pretty sure the Allergo has the CY. Several of my students have been successful with the 600. While my flute was being overhauled this month, I borrowed a 600 from work. I did notice it had some limitations, but my flute cost twice as much, and, until you're ready to spend twice as much, the Yamaha 600 is pretty good. The tone and scale are ok, and the mechanism's light and reliable. The nicest flute one of my students has bought recently, however, was the Muramatsu EX. If you're going to a flute fair (that one's pretty big, right?), be sure to try all kinds of brands and models, while you have the chance. Determine your price range ahead of time, and look up a bunch of models in that range (even plated, you'll be pleasantly surprised).

What I meant about the plated vs. silver debate is, if I only have x$ to spend, I'd prefer to spend those dollars on design and craftsmanship, rather than the material of the flute, which is almost always the least significant factor in a flute's playability. I played flutes of many materials at the flute convention, as my musician (non-flutist) husband listened, and, while I could feel some differences in response, he insisted the differences in tone, to his ear, were barely perceptible. I even played a stainless-steel headjoint! Very good, but more expensive than silver, due to manufacturing process.

P.S. Solid silver, coin silver, Britania silver, and sterling silver each contain different amounts of actual silver, relative to the alloyed metals (copper, etc.).