sloppy B key

[HMannfan]

The B key (left hand thumb key) has a considerable amount of sideways play. It is an old Armstrong 85. How can I tighten the fit of this key? I saw somewhere what I believe were washers (delrin I think) that could be used to take up the slack but I can't find them anymore. I don't have the skill or materials to solder an extension to the tubing itself--although I suspect this is the proper way to repair such a condition.

I am seeing the same condition on other older student instruments.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Zevang]

I can't see the amount of play you are dealing with, but maybe a Swedging Pliers would help.

[mirwa]

Key slop can be repaired in many ways,

First is the rod to small for the hinge tube, that is with the key removed does the rod wobble inside the tubing
Is the hinge tube too narrow to fit in the gap between the posts

If the rod is too loose, then the tube needs to be swedes down, or the rod needs to be oversized and tube reamed to suit

If the hinge tube is too small between the posts, you can either move the posts in, or swedge the tube to make it longer and then fit,

As far as washers, I believe j l smith sell them, really IMO not a good option

Steve

[HMannfan]

Thank you Zvang and mirwa. There is a little end play between the posts as well as play between the hinge tube and rod screw. Given that fitting a larger diameter rod screw is beyond my present skill level, swedging the hinge tube would seem my only option. Is it likely that I will mar the hinge tube in doing so using a pair of swedging pliers?

[fluteguy18]

Depending on what swedging technique you use... maybe. First the pliers must be polished to a mirror finish. When you swedge, I personally like having a little bit of grease on the surface of the tube. It helps prevent marring. When you swedge, you must ALWAYS have the hinge rod inside the hinge tube.

Two basic techniques:

1: clamp down with the pliers and twist. This usually leaves marks but also guarantees that your tubing stays as round as possible.

2: (my preferred method on instruments with plated keys). Treating the hinge like a compass, clamp down with the pliers. Rotate 90 degrees and repeat until you have clamped at North, South, East and West. Then repeat at NE, SE, SW, and NW. Might help to mark your orientation. Will result in some out of roundness, but doesn't leave any scars if done properly. The hinge rod will be an octagon shape on a very subtle microscopic level...

Pay very close attention to fit as you do this. If the hinge rod stops turning in the hinge tube as you swedge you're probably making it too far out of round, or you're swedging on a part of the rod that is more narrow than what is normally there, or the rod is actually bent and the bend is becoming evident through the swedging process.

[HMannfan]

Thanks fluteguy 18. Ferries has some swedging pliers with highly polished jaws. I guess I better order a pair. Something new to learn, and a new tool to buy! I'll let you know how it goes.

[mirwa]

There will always be marring caused by swedging, the trick is to minimise that marring to a point where it is barely noticeable, the best units for your situation are the ferrees collet set, these are perfect for what you currently need.

[fluteguy18]

I agree with Mirwa's suggestion. go with the collet set for this key instead of the pliers. I also advise that the 'highly polished' pliers from Ferrees still aren't polished enough.

[HMannfan]

Mirwa, are you referring to Ferrees' F80 ADJUSTABLE WOODWIND KEY SWEDGING TOOL?

Sorry, I got distracted for a short time with another project.

[mirwa]

Yes

[HMannfan]

Steve and fluteguy18,

I took your advice and bought the Ferrees' F80 ADJUSTABLE WOODWIND KEY SWEDGING TOOL. I used it today with great success on the B key. I need to do some polishing to remove the fine scratches left by the tool, but I got a nice tight fit. I'm glad I also bought the hollow hinge tube shortening kit to go with it, because I did need to trim it slightly after the swedging.

Thanks again for your advice!

[bigbandaxes]

Congratulations on swedging success, I think. I wish I would have seen this thread sooner.

My advice would have been to first determine why the B key was sloppy and had a lot of side play. To jump immediately to swedging might have been a mistake. Yes, it relieved the side play, but might have left an underling problem.
It's been my experience that excessive side play on the "back thumb keys" of a flute is usually caused by a bent post. Sometimes the outside post is actually pushed (dented) into the body slightly. Your problem might have been solved by simply re-aligning the post or "pulling" it up.

So, when attempting any repair, it is important to first determine the cause of the problem. That will then determine the proper repair techinques to use.

[pied_piper]

...It's been my experience that excessive side play on the "back thumb keys" of a flute is usually caused by a bent post. Sometimes the outside post is actually pushed (dented) into the body slightly. Your problem might have been solved by simply re-aligning the post or "pulling" it up.

So, when attempting any repair, it is important to first determine the cause of the problem. That will then determine the proper repair techinques to use.

I agree 100% with your statement that it is important to determine the real problem. Although, it has not been my experience that thumb key play is usually caused by a bent post. A bent post may be a common cause of the problem with school/student flutes because kids are usually rougher on their instrument. I rarely see a bent post for the thumb keys because much of my repair work is for adults and professionals. With most of my customers, the problem is almost always wear because they are generally more careful with their instruments and the wear is due to LOTS of hours of playing time.

[HMannfan]

Thank you bigbandaxes and pied_piper,

The posts were examined first, and though I never mentioned it, it was a consideration from the first. The flute is 30yrs old and simply has some amount of wear that needs attention. A couple thousandths stretch was sufficient to provide a nice tight fit without interfering with the key action.

Thanks again for your thoughtful input.

Mark

[fluteguy18]

Steve and fluteguy18,

I took your advice and bought the Ferrees' F80 ADJUSTABLE WOODWIND KEY SWEDGING TOOL. I used it today with great success on the B key. I need to do some polishing to remove the fine scratches left by the tool, but I got a nice tight fit. I'm glad I also bought the hollow hinge tube shortening kit to go with it, because I did need to trim it slightly after the swedging.

Thanks again for your advice!

Congrats! If you make sure to use a thick grease (almost waxy in consistency) and making sure not to twist while the collet is tightened, it will reduce marring substantially. I often don't have any scratches to clean up. But for your first time, it's a great success.