"Advanced"

[golden ass]

Do you rate the pieces in the 'Flute Music by French Composers' compendium "advanced"?

If you don't have the book, it includes Cecile Chaminade's Concertino Op.107, Gabriel Faure's Fantaisie, and things in that vein. I would have called them advanced, but on youtube it seems like every eight year old has them mastered. Maybe kids are just more advanced these days?

Until last month I'd only played baroque music. This modern stuff seems very tough - but I'm getting the hang of it. I can't double-tongue - I never found it essential, even in vivace movements. I should probably start to learn..

[comtessedebergerac]

French music is generally "medium" level as far as technical skills are evaluated, but it tends to be more "advanced" level when speaking of musicality and performance (interpretative use of vibrato, timbre, nuances, intonation, projection, and so on...).

You need to be "mature and spiritually advanced" to play this stuff , and it can be pretty difficult to play WELL . Go look on U-tube, you'll see lots of flutists playing the notes, but very few making music.

And although these 8 year olds you are referring to are undoubtedly doing their best, I never heard one playing with the "grace and lyrisme" needed for this music...

[fluteguy18]

You need to be "mature and spiritually advanced" to play this stuff , and it can be pretty difficult to play WELL . Go look on U-tube, you'll see lots of flutists playing the notes, but very few making music.

And although these 8 year olds you are referring to are undoubtedly doing their best, I never heard one playing with the "grace and lyrisme" needed for this music...

BRAVO! I couldn't have said it better myself.

As far as technique, these pieces are [in my opinion], at an intermediate level. For musicality however, I think they fall more into a high intermediate level. To play the pieces WELL with interesting and varied phrasing [to prevent things from being stale], I think that is a little bit more difficult. I have listened to so many recordings on youtube and haven't found very many of them to be interesting. I seldom comment on them, but on one occasion I just had to. There was a young woman playing the Faure Fantaisie. In regards to technique, she was wonderful. But her interpretation was so emotionally flat that I was bored to tears. There was no phrasing variation. No dynamics. All the same vibrato. Nothing interesting. So, I said: good technique, but emotionally lacking.

Needless to say, there were several people there that were amazed by her performance who reamed me [over a period of two months]. I avoid that scene now... there are just some people that think a perfect performance is merely a performance without wrong notes.

[fluteguy18]

WOW! What an interesting [albeit unintentional] way to revive an old thread.

"Is it doing more harm than good...."

Very interesting. My immediate answer would be YES. Playing technical pieces too early and too young could lead to physical inconsistancies in their technique. Very few young flutists can actually hear things other than wrong notes. So often times, you will see an elementary school aged child playing a technical piece that is chocked full of intonation problems and uneven technique. But all of the notes are there and in the right place. And it seems to me that these players would feel that they had mastered these pieces, then would be frustrated when they would have to go back to fix the problems and make it better when they are older and more mature players.

At the same time, I want to say NO. While yes these are problems, it could also work in the sense of improving overall dexterity, and later musicality. I know that whenever I pull out something that I worked on a long time ago, I immediately have new ideas of what I want to do with it. So, the overall development of the piece is more organic in many ways. Therefore, over an extended period of time, you will get players that have a HUGE repertoire that (if given some prep time) could be played quite solidly.

My. My. What a conundrum.

Any thoughts?

[Phineas]

Here is my .02 cents

I do not believe in limiting anyone on their advancement, or trying difficult piece, especially with young people. What I have a problem with is these children being held at a lower standard. Here is what I mean.

Often I will see a child that will play something, O.K., but people will tell the child that they are playing Excellent. Then the child does not make any advancement in the "RIGHT" direction because they think they can already play. This locks the child musician into a mental cycle they may never recover from, because they will not be use to critcism.

In other words, some people cannot handle being told they are exceptional. Some people use this as an excuse not to advance any further. This is what makes it bad to egg on a child who can play through a tune just playing the notes, when that is only a part of performance. Gospel singers are another example of this. Who would critique a person that sings for church no matter how bad they are right? I have seen people try to go into to music business thinking they could sing because people at church told them how good they were, only for reality hit them.

Youtube is good and bad for musical entertainment. I have seen some pretty interesting and talented people that I would have never seen before. However, judging from the people who review acts on Youtube, this is an example of how clue less the general public is about music performance. I have seen people who were good get bad reviews, and at the same time O.K. artists get raving reviews. Often times, I have seen artists that get good reviews just by how well their Myspace page looks.

Phineas

[vampav8trix]

All of this has made me want to ask a new question that relates to this.

What about an adult student that has a musical background. Would it be a bad idea for this person to work on an advanced piece?

I am asking because I like to try hard pieces. I realise that I am playing them badly for the most part. I just slow them down a lot and really try and listen to tone, intonation, phrasing and dymanics. It will probably be another year or two before I can play Carmen fantasy just Okay.

I played percussion in college.

I played flute up until the first year of high school.

I am taking lessons with a great instructor and I am playing with a local wind ensamble.

I would hope that my instructor would correct me when I do something wrong and tell me how I am really doing.

Should I quit playing around with complex pieces?

[Phineas]

All of this has made me want to ask a new question that relates to this.

What about an adult student that has a musical background. Would it be a bad idea for this person to work on an advanced piece?

Absolutely not!!!! I would not stop ANYONE from trying advanced pieces!!! The problem is not trying the pieces, but the feedback you get from others. Also, keep in mind that there is a big difference between a 6 year old trying to play a piece, and an adult(or anyone that has a better than beginning backround)! Adults have more options. You have the ability to gather, and listen to recordings. You also have the ability to record yourself playing the piece, and listen to yourself. You also have a level of understanding as far as what you may need work on. Almost every good player I got a chance to meet that played well all loved to listen to music, and were good listeners. After all, half of learning a piece/tune/song is knowing what you want to sound like.

My beef is most of what I see on youtube. If these young(some grown ones also!) people that I see on Youtube were forced to imitate the dynamics of something they listen to, and taught the right skills how to do it, then you would see better results. (Gospel singers dont count because most of them scream anyway!) The problem comes from these people who get their head pumped up, and believe they do not have to improve. Then when they do have to step up, the get frustrated and disappointed.

Keep on learning the difficult pieces, just be open minded to criticism, and realize there is always room for improvement.

Phineas

[pied_piper]

The problem comes from these people who get their head pumped up, and believe they do not have to improve. Then when they do have to step up, the get frustrated and disappointed.

Phineas

Phineas, You are spot on with that statement. I've known some high school players who could rip through very technical pieces and play all of the notes, but there was little musicality in it - just a lot of notes. When they get to college, THEY get ripped apart for lack of phrasing, poor interpretation, or other nuances. They thought they were the best of the best but when they find out they aren't, some just hang up the instrument unless they can cope with the reality and adjust.

[musical_Kat]

I would have to agree 100% on this! I think it all comes back to praise vs. encouragement. I've been learning about this in a parenting class i've been taking through my church but it applies to all areas of life. If you praise a child (or a flute student) on something that they have done it doesn't give them the insentive to try to become greater. It's all in the wording. Instead of saying, "wow, that was beautiful, you did a great job on that!" it's actually better to say, "wow, I can tell you've been working really hard. Keep up the good work." You're still validating so they don't feel like you don't respect the work that they're putting in...but you aren't telling them that they are perfect and don't need more work. It inspires MORE work and MORE practice.

Anyway, I just thought that it was interesting considering this is the exact thing we've been discussing in class and then to find it being discussed in here.

[MissyHPhoenix]

This subject got my attention. I recently found out that the junior high band director (my niece is in his class) is having his 8th grade students learn "vibrato" so that they will be ready for high school next year. This really bugs me since most of these flute students still don't know how to play in tune or read music consistently. I had the horrible duty to walk in on my niece when she was practicing, badly, and try to explain to her what she was doing wrong. The director had told her that she was great! Can anybody explain to me this director's reasoning behind this? It seems absolutely ludicrous to have these children use "vibrato" when they can't even play the note! Is it his way of disguising their tone? The even sadder part, to me, was that these students were using vibrato continually, not just as an accent, so that everything they play sounds like it is waaa-waaa-waaa-ing!!! And, of course, none of them were in tune with anyone else .....

Anyway, just my 2 cents ....... that really bugs me!

Missy

[Phineas]

This subject got my attention. I recently found out that the junior high band director (my niece is in his class) is having his 8th grade students learn "vibrato" so that they will be ready for high school next year. This really bugs me since most of these flute students still don't know how to play in tune or read music consistently. I had the horrible duty to walk in on my niece when she was practicing, badly, and try to explain to her what she was doing wrong. The director had told her that she was great! Can anybody explain to me this director's reasoning behind this? It seems absolutely ludicrous to have these children use "vibrato" when they can't even play the note! Is it his way of disguising their tone? The even sadder part, to me, was that these students were using vibrato continually, not just as an accent, so that everything they play sounds like it is waaa-waaa-waaa-ing!!! And, of course, none of them were in tune with anyone else .....

Anyway, just my 2 cents ....... that really bugs me!

Missy

What instrument does the director play? I will bet it is not the flute!

Phineas

[MissyHPhoenix]

You got it, Phineas!!! He plays the trumpet!

[etgohomeok]

I'll just go ahead and point out the fact that all the eight-year-olds that play Flight of the Bumblebee and Chaminade on Youtube are Asian kids that get beaten by their parents if they don't practice for at least 6 hours a day.

You'll call me racist, then you'll realize it's true.

[MissyHPhoenix]

Is that true? I didn't know that! No wonder they are so good so young, but wow, what a horrid way to raise a kid .....

[etgohomeok]

Well I was exaggerating a bit the way I said it, but same concept. Asians have a way of raising their kids that is really tough and doesn't allow them to have time for things like social lives because they study and practice all the time.