Metal V.s Wood Piccs

sidekicker · Post by **sidekicker** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:59 am

IMO, this is one of those mythological areas of the flute world. I have to side with the position that the wood/metal dichotomy for piccs is, in general, pretty much a false one and yet another unfortunate fad that the industry has conned many people into (that wood is better than metal, and that no decent picc player would even consider performing on metal). Maybe I'm overly cynical, but I don't think it's a coincidence that wood piccs tend to be more expensive, and bring with them a plethora of other worries that require more maintenance and extra $upplie$; or even an entirely new in$trument if a $eriou$ crack develop$ that cannot be adequately repaired. We see a similar thing right now with flutes. It used to be that you were a nobody professionally unless you perform on a sterling, gold, or platinum flute. We know now that very high quality flutes can be plated and sound every bit as good as one made with more precious materials. And that's because the industry, IMO, does not adequately factor in the player's attributes and abilities.

I hope not to offend anybody, but in the 30+ years I've been involved with this wonderful instrument it seems to me that flutists are pretty gullible when it comes to things. A new gimmick comes out, one of our flute royals gets paid a small fortune to endorse it, and everybody seems to jump on it without much thought. I remember back when Haynes came out with their "new" scale and everybody was dumping their older Haynes's to get one of those; they turned out to be, in most cases, pretty horrible. I didn't complain, though, because I was the lucky recipient of one of the old Haynes's someone was trying to get rid of

(the woman who sold it to me actually wanted to buy it back after getting a new, rather disappointing, Haynes). I still play on this instrument and am very proud to be the owner of one of these vintage gems. There's nothing like an old Haynes, IMO

.

Anyway, with regard to piccs. One should buy what one sounds best on for the circumstances in which s/he performs. It really is that simple, but it takes commitment to put in the effort to determine that and a willingness to stand up to rumors and indu$try $ale$ technique$. To be very clear, I'm not calling flutemakers swindlers; not at all. I'm just saying that they use many ways to market their product (like anybody else). Some of it is bunk and some is not. But you must at all times check out the claims made.

Sorry to go off on a little tangent

SK

Phineas · Post by **Phineas** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:20 am

Sidekicker

I totally agree. This is a prime example of the Flute/Scifi I always talk about.

Phineas

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:12 am

Well said, Sidekicker. I couldn't agree more, and while it's true that much of the flute world seems to be pretty gullible, a better understanding behind the science seems to be spreading, and helping to debunk some of these myths. All in all, that was an excellent post, though. Bravo!

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:11 am

I agree.

IMO the biggest sound difference that I have found [in flutes and piccs.... metal vs. wood] is whether there is a clear defined edge to the sound. I dont exactly have a clear word for what I mean, but I will try my best to describe it. I know that headjoint cut and design and everything ties in trememdously but it seems that material wise there is a difference regardless of material [wood vs. metal]. It seems that wood has a very round sound [if made well] but there isnt a defined edge to the tone. Metal IMO has a sort of 'ring' that surrounds the tone. A more defined edge to it. So, while they both produce a great sound, wood in my opinion lacks the metallic 'edge' and this seems to be a lot of the real debate here.

I dont know if that made much sense, but I tried.

atoriphile · Post by **atoriphile** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:42 am

From my experience, a vast majority of the metal piccolos have cylindrical bores. That is probably why they sound harsh (I'm no expert, though).

From my experience, most (if not all) plastic and wood piccolos have conical bores. That is probably why they sound sweeter (again, I'm no expert, though).

Thus, the material probably doesn't make much of a difference. However, it is hard to find an affordable metal piccolo with a conical bore. So if you're on a budget, I would suggest one of the plastic piccolos such as the Pearl grenaditte piccolo.

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:04 pm

atoriphile wrote:From my experience, a vast majority of the metal piccolos have cylindrical bores. That is probably why they sound harsh (I'm no expert, though).

From my experience, most (if not all) plastic and wood piccolos have conical bores. That is probably why they sound sweeter (again, I'm no expert, though).

Thus, the material probably doesn't make much of a difference. However, it is hard to find an affordable metal piccolo with a conical bore. So if you're on a budget, I would suggest one of the plastic piccolos such as the Pearl grenaditte piccolo.

Conical bore metal piccs are not hard to find, really, nor particularly expensive. The Gemeinhardt 4S, for example, has a conical bore, and sells for under $700 new (same goes for the Jupiter piccs at around $500). It's mostly older instruments (wooden ones as well) that have a cylindrical bore (though there are modern instruments with a cylindrical bore), and in any case, conical bores improve intonation, rather than tone. Aside from the player, the headjoint dictates most powerfully what kind of sound the instrument will have, rather than the body. This is true of flutes as well as piccolos, so explaining tonal differences with different styles of bodies doesn't really add up IMHO.

FLflutist · Post by **FLflutist** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:50 pm

Cylindrical and conical bores? Please explain

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:05 pm

FLflutist wrote:Cylindrical and conical bores? Please explain

It's really rather simple. The bore is the inside of the tube, be it a flute, piccolo, clarinet, etc. Older piccolos had a cylindrical bore, which essentially means that the inner diameter of the tube remained constant throughout its whole length. This produced a picc that played much like a flute (very easy to get notes out), but with difficult intonation. So, makers started producing conical bore piccolos, whose bodies taper towards the "footjoint" end, which can be slightly more difficult to play, but offer more consistent intonation. It's a tradeoff, but today, most top-of-the-line piccolos will have a conical bore, while some lower cost, introductory piccs have cylindrical bores that allow beginners to play them more easily.

kflutist · Post by **kflutist** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:55 pm

About older metal piccolos having cylindrical bores this is not necessarily true. I believe though I may be wrong that the type of bore used depends more on the maker than the age. For example Gemienhardts have conical bores, while older (I don't know for sure about newer) Armstrongs have cylindrical. I am currently playing on a metal Gemienhardt that is at least 30 years old it has a conical bore. It responds to the sound that I want no matter if it needs to be louder and possibly more piercing if I am marching or soft and sensitive for concert music. Previously I have played on an equally as old Armstrong with a cylindrical bore and a Gemeinhardt 4SP I believe it had a conical bore with a metal head and plastic body. With the Armstrong I noted that the highest notes were more easily reached but often with less response in the lower register. With the plastic Gemienhardt (I honestly didn't like it) the sound was harder to produce and with the amount of air that it took not at all sensitive to dynamic changes particularly with the highest notes.

This is merely my experience but it has led to my belief that if you find an instrument that works for you even if it goes against the norm than use it. If it is your only option than learn its tendencies and adapt and if you happen to have the resources then find something that you love.

It doesn't have to be what your teacher or directer recommends (though if it is within your resources it couldn't hurt to check it out). It needs to be something that you can work with and love because it is you...not them...who is playing. So be whatever you find plastic, metal or wood do what works for you and love it. That is what music is about.

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:04 pm

kflutist wrote:About older metal piccolos having cylindrical bores this is not necessarily true.

What I mentioned about older piccs having cylindrical bores is true for the most part, but we seem to have different ideas of what "old" means. If you look at piccs from early in the 20th century and back into the 19th, odds are most will have cylindrical bores, particularly as you move further back into the past. Certainly conical bores had been introduced 30 years ago, but while these piccolos have some age on them, they are not among the piccs I was referring to. Perhaps the word "vintage" or some other alternative would have suited better.

kflutist · Post by **kflutist** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:41 pm

Sorry about that. I am fairly young so to me 20 years plus is old.

FLflutist · Post by **FLflutist** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:21 pm

Hmm, I didn't know a lot of this.

Thank you all for your input

sidekicker · Post by **sidekicker** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:03 am

fluteguy18 wrote:It seems that wood has a very round sound [if made well] but there isnt a defined edge to the tone. Metal IMO has a sort of 'ring' that surrounds the tone. A more defined edge to it. So, while they both produce a great sound, wood in my opinion lacks the metallic 'edge' and this seems to be a lot of the real debate here.

I dont know if that made much sense, but I tried.

I see what you are saying, and you are probably correct about there being some difference in the sound between the two; it is rare that any two instruments are going to sound exactly the same. However, what you notice is probably pretty miniscule considering the venues in which piccs are most often used. We don't, unfortunately, have a huge repertoire of good solo/recital music for piccolo where the player would be expected to produce the type of colour palette a flutist does (hopefully

) when performing in smaller ensembles. The vast majority of music involving the piccolo is found in the orchestra, wind ensemble, marching band, and large concert/symphonic band repertoire where (with a few exceptions of course, e.g. Bartok) the piccolo is generally expected to have an edgy sound that will project over the rest of the ensemble. In these settings, which are far more common, nobody is likely to notice the "ring" you probably are hearing because you are physically so close to the instrument.

This is a big reason why I've been a tireless advocate of always, always, always taking a non-musician, or at least a non-flutist, to listen if you are considering the purchase of a new flute, headjoint, or piccolo. If they can't hear any differences in how you sound, then the investment being considered is probably not worth it. After all, these are the types of people for whom we generally perform. Why pay $6K for a gold headjoint that nobody but you can distinguish between it and the fine silver one you already have?

Another tangent; sorry

.

SK

briolette · Post by **briolette** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:40 pm

What do people think of metal wood combos? I've seen Yamahas with metal headjoints and wooden bodies...

I have a metal piccolo with a conical bore...cheap 4s Gemmy model and yet, by far its my favorite. Comparing it to other Gemeindharts of the same model, the headjoint is cut slightly different (mine is much more square). i attribute to this to the fact that mine was made in the 80's. I get a surprisingly "dark" sound out of this piccolo but because the headjoint is easy to play (at least for me...I've got kind of a small mouth) other tonal colorations are easy to produce.

This is all to echo the sentiments in this thread that you really ought to try them out and pick what works best for you regardless of material.

FLflutist · Post by **FLflutist** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:45 pm

Oh, I didn't know you could mix a metal headjoint with a wooden body...