Where are you flutistically?
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
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concertino
- Posts: 28
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- Location: New England
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sidekicker
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:58 am
- Location: Scottish-American in Oklahoma
I qualify as a 10 under this chart (I can play and/or have played all of the listed rep, etc.), but like others on here I question the validity of such a "scale". There are just too many variables to consider.
And, btw, although I know I'll probably get zinged for saying so, I think Density 21.5 is a rather stupid piece of music (w/ Davidovsky's Synchronisms running a very close second in my book). It's ugly and does nothing but bore the people who have to listen to it when it's performed, not to mention embarrass the poor soul who did nothing but show an audience how gross the flute can sound. What a great accomplishment
. I was forced to study that piece of trash in grad school (as well as the Davidovsky, which I had to perform) and never have played it/them since. And I have no plans to dig it up for the future either unless I decide to run it through my shredder.
And how many of us have platinum flutes anyway? My former teacher (God rest his soul) had one and it was incredibly heavy and uncomfortable to play (I tried it once, and that was enough). I don't know why anybody would consider shelling out that type of dough, anyway, for a flute that is uncomfortably (IMO) heavy and is made of a precious metal that is much more prone to scratching than silver or gold. I also found the sound to be dark, dull, and pretty much lifeless (both when he played it and when I did). Not exactly my idea of a quality instrument, but I know it was b/c my teacher was one of the NYC "biggies" at the time for whom the closest attention to details would have been paid when the flute was made for him.
Now, platinum heads and/or risers are a different story depending on the composition of the rest of the instrument components (i.e., gold or silver head, body, etc.). A few weeks ago I played on an excellent 14K Powell head with a platinum riser. I ended up buying a 14K Brannen-Cooper, though, which combined incredibly nicely with my silver Haynes body.
SK
And, btw, although I know I'll probably get zinged for saying so, I think Density 21.5 is a rather stupid piece of music (w/ Davidovsky's Synchronisms running a very close second in my book). It's ugly and does nothing but bore the people who have to listen to it when it's performed, not to mention embarrass the poor soul who did nothing but show an audience how gross the flute can sound. What a great accomplishment
. I was forced to study that piece of trash in grad school (as well as the Davidovsky, which I had to perform) and never have played it/them since. And I have no plans to dig it up for the future either unless I decide to run it through my shredder.And how many of us have platinum flutes anyway? My former teacher (God rest his soul) had one and it was incredibly heavy and uncomfortable to play (I tried it once, and that was enough). I don't know why anybody would consider shelling out that type of dough, anyway, for a flute that is uncomfortably (IMO) heavy and is made of a precious metal that is much more prone to scratching than silver or gold. I also found the sound to be dark, dull, and pretty much lifeless (both when he played it and when I did). Not exactly my idea of a quality instrument, but I know it was b/c my teacher was one of the NYC "biggies" at the time for whom the closest attention to details would have been paid when the flute was made for him.
Now, platinum heads and/or risers are a different story depending on the composition of the rest of the instrument components (i.e., gold or silver head, body, etc.). A few weeks ago I played on an excellent 14K Powell head with a platinum riser. I ended up buying a 14K Brannen-Cooper, though, which combined incredibly nicely with my silver Haynes body.
SK
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
Each to their own.....
I guess some people just dont enjoy doing wierd things with their instrument [ special effect sort of things]. I personally enjoy doing things like multiphonics, and key clicks, and singing while playing, and flutter tongueing. But, I do agree..... even though I think it is cool..... they can sometimes be very Ugly sounds. Oh well.
Each to their own.
I guess some people just dont enjoy doing wierd things with their instrument [ special effect sort of things]. I personally enjoy doing things like multiphonics, and key clicks, and singing while playing, and flutter tongueing. But, I do agree..... even though I think it is cool..... they can sometimes be very Ugly sounds. Oh well.
Each to their own.
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sidekicker
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:58 am
- Location: Scottish-American in Oklahoma
Boy, you paint with an awfully broad brush if you assume simply because I hate those two pieces of music that I have something against contemporary music. When I was in grad school, I spent 4 semesters in the contemporary ensemble and played tons of new compositions. Some were great; some weren't. It has nothing to do with whether I enjoy doing "weird" things with my instrument or not.fluteguy18 wrote:Each to their own.....
I guess some people just dont enjoy doing wierd [sic] things with their instrument [ special effect sort of things]. I personally enjoy doing things like multiphonics, and key clicks, and singing while playing, and flutter tongueing. But, I do agree..... even though I think it is cool..... they can sometimes be very Ugly sounds. Oh well.
Each to their own.
I probably should have qualified that I have nothing against "newer" music (actually, both those pieces have been in the rep for quite some time so they are hardly "new"; Density was composed in 1936 I think), and I have no problem "doing wierd [sic] things" with my instrument in the form of special effects. I'm a huge fan of George Crumb, for example, who incorporates just about every special effect there is on the flute. He's just, IMO, a better composer of contemporary music involving the flute. Crumb's music contains just about all the things you mention (key clicks, flutters, singing while playing, etc.); so it's the composer, not whether one enjoys playing "special effects" or not.
I just see myself as one who is unafraid to recognize bad music for what it is, and unwilling to accept pieces as presently relevant just b/c some teacher who grew up when those two pieces (Density and Synchronisms) were really new music thinks they have some type of importance in our current repertoire. Just because a piece has survived in the flute rep doesn't necessarily mean that it's not also a piece of junk. Many teachers, IMO, mistakenly believe they are somehow obligated to throw every piece of music that appears in the Flute World Catalog, premiered and/or performed at an NFA convention, or penned by a composer famous for other works (e.g. Varese) at their students. Both Density and Synchronisms were "novelty" pieces for their time, and, IMO, should be given no greater status than that; the former composed for a flute made from a new metal, the latter was one of the first (if not the first, but I don't know) piece to combine the flute with electronically produced sounds on tape.
To each his own? I totally agree that people can, and almost always do, have different tastes in music. But the real question, I think, is can we think on our own and develop the skills necessary to discern good music from trash? To me, that's more important than a short variation of "you like that, I like this, and all is fine" (then join hands and break into kumbaya . . .)
Many of you here who are students now, will be teachers in the future. So it's important that you realize this now for your future students' sake. They're counting on you to do develop these types of skills.
SK
I was taught that, basically, the entire point of Density 21.5 was to exploit and showcase the unique response, timbre, and other characteristics of a platinum flute. Otherwise, I'll agree, it's pretty unattractive and I can't envision myself ever performing it. The first platinum flute was debuted by Barrere at the (1936?) World's Fair.
"There is no 'Try'; there is only 'Do'."--Yoda
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
Sorry, I didnt mean to make it sound like that. But, I guess we both could have been clearer. I didnt mean to make it sound like I thought you didnt like ANY kind of contemporary music.
I myself havent had much exposure to contemporary music like this, so in the mean time I like it [density]. But, as I become more exposed to this sort of thing, my opinion may change.
I myself havent had much exposure to contemporary music like this, so in the mean time I like it [density]. But, as I become more exposed to this sort of thing, my opinion may change.
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drumajorchick
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:10 am
- Location: Houston, Texas
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coming from a band setting.. this rubric really doesn't suit me for some reason x.x
for example, i can hit C1-C4 easily and reach D4 after warming up. i know most of the extended techniques, flutter tongue-ing, overblown harmonics. i do daily tone exercises. and i'm used to playing, duets and the stuff. in fact, i love playing duets/trios more than solo. =D
but stuff like memorising arpeggios, key signatures, minor major scales.. all i'm not familiar with. most of the things i know are self taught. been only playing for about 2-3 years without a teacher. i only recently started becoming more interested in taking flute as a career about half a year ago. probably will be finding a teacher soon so i can advance in the areas where i seem to be ~grade 2-3 in ^^;.
anyway, from this rubrics, i seem to be running all over the place? haha
for example, i can hit C1-C4 easily and reach D4 after warming up. i know most of the extended techniques, flutter tongue-ing, overblown harmonics. i do daily tone exercises. and i'm used to playing, duets and the stuff. in fact, i love playing duets/trios more than solo. =D
but stuff like memorising arpeggios, key signatures, minor major scales.. all i'm not familiar with. most of the things i know are self taught. been only playing for about 2-3 years without a teacher. i only recently started becoming more interested in taking flute as a career about half a year ago. probably will be finding a teacher soon so i can advance in the areas where i seem to be ~grade 2-3 in ^^;.
anyway, from this rubrics, i seem to be running all over the place? haha
Again, all respect to Jenny Cluff(I debate with her all the time on flutenet on Yahoo!) This chart is very narrow minded.
I had a recent experience with a flute teacher/professor where he tried to dis credit my ability by pulling out something I could not play. As it turned out, the hardest part about the piece was not the notes, but the dynamics and trills. Ok, so I do not play classical music that much, big deal. I challenged this guy that I could pull something out of my bag that he could not play. I pulled out a pattern book by David Chesky(Basiclly excercises with 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths intervals.). I also pulled out another book by Bob Mintzner. And last but not least, the song No More Blues by Jobim. This guy could not play any of these things up to tempo right off the bat. Just as bad as I played the pieces he pulled out, he could not play the pices I pulled out either. Does this make me a better flute player than him? Maybe jazz wise, but this would also make him better than I am classical wise. The fact is, anyone can be good at any piece or excercise if they practice!
Experiences like these prove that a rating system is only valid for the people who came up with it. I could come up with a chart that says you are a "10" if you know all of the Charlie Parker tunes. Big deal. What should me most important in an ideal world is how YOU rate yourself, and if you think you should practice more to be better. Not rating yourself off of a chart. A good muscian can play "Mary Had A Little Lamb" and you would still beable to tell they are a good musician!
My 2 pennies are adding up around here!
Phineas
I had a recent experience with a flute teacher/professor where he tried to dis credit my ability by pulling out something I could not play. As it turned out, the hardest part about the piece was not the notes, but the dynamics and trills. Ok, so I do not play classical music that much, big deal. I challenged this guy that I could pull something out of my bag that he could not play. I pulled out a pattern book by David Chesky(Basiclly excercises with 4ths, 5ths, and 6ths intervals.). I also pulled out another book by Bob Mintzner. And last but not least, the song No More Blues by Jobim. This guy could not play any of these things up to tempo right off the bat. Just as bad as I played the pieces he pulled out, he could not play the pices I pulled out either. Does this make me a better flute player than him? Maybe jazz wise, but this would also make him better than I am classical wise. The fact is, anyone can be good at any piece or excercise if they practice!
Experiences like these prove that a rating system is only valid for the people who came up with it. I could come up with a chart that says you are a "10" if you know all of the Charlie Parker tunes. Big deal. What should me most important in an ideal world is how YOU rate yourself, and if you think you should practice more to be better. Not rating yourself off of a chart. A good muscian can play "Mary Had A Little Lamb" and you would still beable to tell they are a good musician!
My 2 pennies are adding up around here!
Phineas
I found these charts useful when I'm planning curriculum for my students...
As far as my own self is concerned, I'm definitely in the professional category -- BUT I am always learning. There is always room for growth, no matter how advanced you get, no matter how long you've been a professional. Even the "greats" in the flute scene will sometimes comment "I learned this little trick from so-and-so..."
As far as my own self is concerned, I'm definitely in the professional category -- BUT I am always learning. There is always room for growth, no matter how advanced you get, no matter how long you've been a professional. Even the "greats" in the flute scene will sometimes comment "I learned this little trick from so-and-so..."
Visit [url=http://www.monikadurbin.com/formiapress]Formia Press[/url] to check out my compositions and arrangements for flute and more.
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sidekicker
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:58 am
- Location: Scottish-American in Oklahoma
Phineas --
I could not agree more. These "charts" really are pretty useless, although I recognize that the motive behind their development is a good one. I personally hate the Flute World grading system because it doesn't seem to take any account for the musical difficulty of a piece; everything seems based upon technical expertise. For instance, all the baroque music tends to fall into the lower categories just because it's simpler, even though musically it's probably the most difficult musical period to pull off, IMO.
Again, it's really the teacher's responsibility to make appropriate choices for their students in terms of curriculum. A flute teacher who does not know the repertoire well enough to know the true difficulty level of a particular flute piece should not be teaching, IMO. If you don't know the piece, for Pete's sake buy it and make your own judgment before relying on these ridiculous "difficulty scales" and making the student bear the risk (and cost) of working up a piece that is either too easy or too difficult for them personally.
Just my opinion.
SK
I could not agree more. These "charts" really are pretty useless, although I recognize that the motive behind their development is a good one. I personally hate the Flute World grading system because it doesn't seem to take any account for the musical difficulty of a piece; everything seems based upon technical expertise. For instance, all the baroque music tends to fall into the lower categories just because it's simpler, even though musically it's probably the most difficult musical period to pull off, IMO.
Again, it's really the teacher's responsibility to make appropriate choices for their students in terms of curriculum. A flute teacher who does not know the repertoire well enough to know the true difficulty level of a particular flute piece should not be teaching, IMO. If you don't know the piece, for Pete's sake buy it and make your own judgment before relying on these ridiculous "difficulty scales" and making the student bear the risk (and cost) of working up a piece that is either too easy or too difficult for them personally.
Just my opinion.
SK
Using these charts for planning curriculum for a student doesn't necessarily mean the teacher does not know the repertoire...
For me, having 30+ students, it's nice to have a "quick reference" like these charts. Not because I don't know how hard a piece is, but just to be able to look at a list instead of bringing up pieces from my head. I have played and performed so much repertoire, it's just helpful to have something to look at. (And to write my own notes on, adding pieces, especially 20th century music that can be played by younger flutists... that's an area I always feel is lacking on these charts) So when I sit down before the start of each semester, often the chart (along with my own notes in my studio notebook) will save me some time when organizing and planning for the upcoming semester.
There are also plenty of times when I have the student choose their next piece... with my guidance. So I can hand them a list, highlight which pieces I'd like them to listen to, have them make their own choice from that. My high-school piano teacher (who taught at Peabody) often did this with his younger students, and we loved it. I'm sure it was much more convenient for him to hand us a list and make a couple notes, rather than write one from scratch for all of us (he had far more students than I'd ever want to take on, ack!).
All that being said... it's still a tool. A convenience. Nothing more. It's not perfect, it should never be used exclusively, and you should know the matter well enough to improve upon it on your own, add to it, tailor it to each student. But the charts aren't completely worthless, and using one of these charts in your studio does not automatically mean you don't know the repertoire.
For me, having 30+ students, it's nice to have a "quick reference" like these charts. Not because I don't know how hard a piece is, but just to be able to look at a list instead of bringing up pieces from my head. I have played and performed so much repertoire, it's just helpful to have something to look at. (And to write my own notes on, adding pieces, especially 20th century music that can be played by younger flutists... that's an area I always feel is lacking on these charts) So when I sit down before the start of each semester, often the chart (along with my own notes in my studio notebook) will save me some time when organizing and planning for the upcoming semester.
There are also plenty of times when I have the student choose their next piece... with my guidance. So I can hand them a list, highlight which pieces I'd like them to listen to, have them make their own choice from that. My high-school piano teacher (who taught at Peabody) often did this with his younger students, and we loved it. I'm sure it was much more convenient for him to hand us a list and make a couple notes, rather than write one from scratch for all of us (he had far more students than I'd ever want to take on, ack!).
All that being said... it's still a tool. A convenience. Nothing more. It's not perfect, it should never be used exclusively, and you should know the matter well enough to improve upon it on your own, add to it, tailor it to each student. But the charts aren't completely worthless, and using one of these charts in your studio does not automatically mean you don't know the repertoire.
Visit [url=http://www.monikadurbin.com/formiapress]Formia Press[/url] to check out my compositions and arrangements for flute and more.
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musical_Kat
- Posts: 126
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- Location: West Palm Beach, FL
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I completely agree with all of this...I think there are few too many people on here that are getting a little too self important. If we can all agree not to be the authority on EVERYTHING all of the time then I think some of the younger players may feel a little more welcomed and a lot more confident in their abilities whatever the current skill level. I found the chart interesting and helpful....is it perfect? Of course not....nothing is....and no one on this board is perfect either so let's try not to get our panties in a bunch and start acting like imperfect musicians who still have a lot to learn instead of flute gods and godessesMonikaFL wrote:Using these charts for planning curriculum for a student doesn't necessarily mean the teacher does not know the repertoire...
For me, having 30+ students, it's nice to have a "quick reference" like these charts. Not because I don't know how hard a piece is, but just to be able to look at a list instead of bringing up pieces from my head. I have played and performed so much repertoire, it's just helpful to have something to look at. (And to write my own notes on, adding pieces, especially 20th century music that can be played by younger flutists... that's an area I always feel is lacking on these charts) So when I sit down before the start of each semester, often the chart (along with my own notes in my studio notebook) will save me some time when organizing and planning for the upcoming semester.
There are also plenty of times when I have the student choose their next piece... with my guidance. So I can hand them a list, highlight which pieces I'd like them to listen to, have them make their own choice from that. My high-school piano teacher (who taught at Peabody) often did this with his younger students, and we loved it. I'm sure it was much more convenient for him to hand us a list and make a couple notes, rather than write one from scratch for all of us (he had far more students than I'd ever want to take on, ack!).
All that being said... it's still a tool. A convenience. Nothing more. It's not perfect, it should never be used exclusively, and you should know the matter well enough to improve upon it on your own, add to it, tailor it to each student. But the charts aren't completely worthless, and using one of these charts in your studio does not automatically mean you don't know the repertoire.
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sidekicker
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:58 am
- Location: Scottish-American in Oklahoma
Good grief; you two are overly sensitive, IMO. Express a strong opinion here and all of the sudden you are labeled a self-appointed "flute god" and claim to be an "authority on EVERYTHING".
I said it was my opinion. You're free to do with it what you like, if anything at all. But self-censorship of the type you seem to be advocating (i.e., don't express an opinion that might get someone's "panties in a bunch") is not helpful in a forum that should respect and encourage the free flow of ideas.
SK
I said it was my opinion. You're free to do with it what you like, if anything at all. But self-censorship of the type you seem to be advocating (i.e., don't express an opinion that might get someone's "panties in a bunch") is not helpful in a forum that should respect and encourage the free flow of ideas.
SK