I actually agree with both of you. The playing quality of an instrument is largely dependant upon the individual. However, each instrument has its own set backs, and limitations. A better made flute will have less limitations, but if played poorly it isnt worth the money. So, I do believe that hard work will allow more progress with a mediocre flute, than just very little effort, but having a really good flute. But, also that each flute and its level of craftsmanship do dictate to a degree the rate of the progress you will make.
So, I think you are both right. Craftsmanship says a lot about the playing abilities of the instrument. Also, the musicianship says a lot too because an exellent player on a mediocre instrument will make more money than a poor player on an amazing instrument. Both are right.
New Flute
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
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sidekicker
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:58 am
- Location: Scottish-American in Oklahoma
I have to agree with flutepicc. Last Christmas one of my friends gave me a lamp, the base of which is made of the headless body of a silver Artley in about the condition one might find a $200 flute to be in. I doubt seriously if I put my Burkart head on it (or any nice head) and handed it to Emmanuel Pahud that he would still sound like Pahud or anything resembling it. It sounds like what you are saying, Phineas, is that the difference in Pahud's playing one of his normal instruments compared to the Artley I described would be imperceptible, or at least very minimal, because he is such a great player. Forgive me if I've misunderstood, but if that's your point then I could not disagree more with you. Cheap flutes are cheap because they have limitations built into them (e.g. embouchure holes stamped out by a machine without any extra personal attention, inferior pads, poor metal quality, etc.) Perhaps you can clarify.
SK
SK
I understand what Phineas is saying, but I believe it's true only to a point. One of my students just became aware this week of the differences that fine craftsmanship can offer. Two years ago, as an 8th grader, she performed the first movement of the Devienne e minor concerto. She decided to pull it out & brush it up for an upcoming audition, as it suited the purpose better than her current repertoire, prepared for an MTNA audition. That stuff was mature and beautiful, but, aside from the Reinecke Ballade, it wasn't super-technical. For whatever reason, our all-state judges seem to be hung up on technique--maybe because they feel it's more objective than tone or phrasing, I dunno. The Reinecke doesn't get to the flashiness until the second page, which is too far in. So enter the Devienne--for its period, very technically challenging and still beautiful.
Anyhoo, she originally prepared it on a 4-year-old Gemeinhardt 2SP. She currently plays a Muramatsu EX. In the middle of the first page during her last lesson, she turned and asked incredulously, "Did I play this on my old flute?!" The lovely mechanism and ease of tonal response provided by her newer flute made her scratch her head over some of the markings she had made a couple years ago. For one, she said, "I'm not sure why I marked that E with a little arrow to aim higher and do some gymnastics--it's pretty easy now! The long technical passages seem really easy, too.". So, yes, sometimes, the instrument makes a huge difference. A clunkier mechanism (even a little bit), a mediocre embouchure cut, or just one you happen to have outgrown, and a less-good scale, can all contribute to one not playing one's best--if one's playing is truly sophisticated enough to discern a difference.
That said, I still always sound like ME. Doesn't matter what instrument I'm playing, though I wouldn't perform a challenging piece on my old Gemeinhardt, even with an overhaul. It's just not sensitive enough. I can hear and feel a difference between all those instruments, but even other musicians have a tough time realizing when I'm playing a flute besides the usual one. I sent mine for an overhaul this summer, and for three weeks, borrowed a pretty-good-but not-as-good flute, and had the, um, fortune, of playing about 6 gigs. I wrangled with response differences, and had to adjust to a different scale. Most of these people had heard my playing before, but no doubt not a single one knew I had switched flutes. Also, I demo every flute that comes into our store to be sold, and, though my coworkers are good musicians (wind players, but not flutists), they always just say that I sound like myself, no matter what brand.
We often share the following dialogue:
manager, as I test a $600 student model: "That sounds pretty good!" *Beginners play these because they're inexpensive, and the emboucure hole is cut for a player with little or no experience creating a flute tone. He or she likely woulnd't benefit from a fantastic flute at this level. As your embouchure develops, you will need a different flute.
me: "well, the response is uneven and the mechanism feels sluggish, and I have to totally change my embouchure back to one with no strength or control,but I think it'll be fine for elementary school."
manager: "I sure wouldn't have noticed all that, but, ..."
testing $3000 Yamaha: "Sounds good, Chief. Have you noticed that you sound very similar on all the flutes?"
me: "Goodness, NO!"
manager: "Seriously."
repairman: "He's got a point."
So, on some level, I do always sound the same, though I certainly know the difference between the performance and response of a $600 flute vs. a $20,000 flute. Frankly, while I enjoy the experience of playing mega-expensive flutes, and can make subtle discernments in the response and tone departments, I haven't found anything beyond my Muramatsu worth paying for. I mean, they play 4% better, but cost $12,000 more--worth it? Not! I've played a lot of flutes that were slightly better (some just different in a good way, but not really "better"), if only because they're 30 years newer, and I know what makes them cost more. However, practically never in my life, even in academic musical situations, will anyone but me ever be able to hear a difference. I have the respect of some rather fine musicians, and myself, and that's more than enough.
If your flute's holding you back (and I've had that experience as well), by all means upgrade, but one needn't spent a downpayment on the average house to get a good flute.
Anyhoo, she originally prepared it on a 4-year-old Gemeinhardt 2SP. She currently plays a Muramatsu EX. In the middle of the first page during her last lesson, she turned and asked incredulously, "Did I play this on my old flute?!" The lovely mechanism and ease of tonal response provided by her newer flute made her scratch her head over some of the markings she had made a couple years ago. For one, she said, "I'm not sure why I marked that E with a little arrow to aim higher and do some gymnastics--it's pretty easy now! The long technical passages seem really easy, too.". So, yes, sometimes, the instrument makes a huge difference. A clunkier mechanism (even a little bit), a mediocre embouchure cut, or just one you happen to have outgrown, and a less-good scale, can all contribute to one not playing one's best--if one's playing is truly sophisticated enough to discern a difference.
That said, I still always sound like ME. Doesn't matter what instrument I'm playing, though I wouldn't perform a challenging piece on my old Gemeinhardt, even with an overhaul. It's just not sensitive enough. I can hear and feel a difference between all those instruments, but even other musicians have a tough time realizing when I'm playing a flute besides the usual one. I sent mine for an overhaul this summer, and for three weeks, borrowed a pretty-good-but not-as-good flute, and had the, um, fortune, of playing about 6 gigs. I wrangled with response differences, and had to adjust to a different scale. Most of these people had heard my playing before, but no doubt not a single one knew I had switched flutes. Also, I demo every flute that comes into our store to be sold, and, though my coworkers are good musicians (wind players, but not flutists), they always just say that I sound like myself, no matter what brand.
We often share the following dialogue:
manager, as I test a $600 student model: "That sounds pretty good!" *Beginners play these because they're inexpensive, and the emboucure hole is cut for a player with little or no experience creating a flute tone. He or she likely woulnd't benefit from a fantastic flute at this level. As your embouchure develops, you will need a different flute.
me: "well, the response is uneven and the mechanism feels sluggish, and I have to totally change my embouchure back to one with no strength or control,but I think it'll be fine for elementary school."
manager: "I sure wouldn't have noticed all that, but, ..."
testing $3000 Yamaha: "Sounds good, Chief. Have you noticed that you sound very similar on all the flutes?"
me: "Goodness, NO!"
manager: "Seriously."
repairman: "He's got a point."
So, on some level, I do always sound the same, though I certainly know the difference between the performance and response of a $600 flute vs. a $20,000 flute. Frankly, while I enjoy the experience of playing mega-expensive flutes, and can make subtle discernments in the response and tone departments, I haven't found anything beyond my Muramatsu worth paying for. I mean, they play 4% better, but cost $12,000 more--worth it? Not! I've played a lot of flutes that were slightly better (some just different in a good way, but not really "better"), if only because they're 30 years newer, and I know what makes them cost more. However, practically never in my life, even in academic musical situations, will anyone but me ever be able to hear a difference. I have the respect of some rather fine musicians, and myself, and that's more than enough.
If your flute's holding you back (and I've had that experience as well), by all means upgrade, but one needn't spent a downpayment on the average house to get a good flute. "There is no 'Try'; there is only 'Do'."--Yoda
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
MeLizzard
I agree with you 100% actually, I was just not willing to go into as much detail with my post. I have a whole range of flutes, so I can totally relate to the differences in performance as the quality of the flute gets better. I can even withness the fact that I can play some pieces better on some flutes better than others. I also agree that once you get past a point, playability to price ratio tops off. This is the only reason I do not have anything better than my Yamaha, Pearl, Buffet or my Miyazawa. I could spend 4 times the money, and not get a flute tha plays or sound much better.
One thing we forget is what a step up instrument is suppose to mean. Obviously, the example you used is a student that was already good. Therefore, and step up instrument would make a difference. Often times, I see students buy a step up instrument because they think it is time, but they really do not have what it takes to get anything out of it. What is worse are the students that use their instrument as a crutch, or excuse as to why they are not as good as they should be. I have also seen some students come from poor families that play great, but struggle trying to keep their cheap instrument adjusted. Partly because they practice so much. Of course, when I see a student like this, occasionally I loose one of my flutes as a donation to the cause. Yes I give my flutes away on occasion.(This gives me the perfect excuse to go shopping for a replacement!) Funny, I have never sold or traded in a flute. I have always found a place I can donate my under used instruments. If price were always a factor of how good a flute will sound, then how do you explain people who can sound good on a $10.00 recorder, Bamboo flute, or a flute made from PVC pipe.
No matter what, if a person comes up to me and asks me about improving their sound, I will listen to them play first, then I will conclude if a new flute will make a difference. In most cases it just doesnt.
As far as what other people think, next to some of these classical flute experts that operate in the realm of Science Fiction, I find the I am my worse critique. I have found when it comes to an audience, as long as they recognize the tune, then they will think you are good. Most people could not tell the difference between one flute of the other.
Phineas
Flute Student....for life.
I agree with you 100% actually, I was just not willing to go into as much detail with my post. I have a whole range of flutes, so I can totally relate to the differences in performance as the quality of the flute gets better. I can even withness the fact that I can play some pieces better on some flutes better than others. I also agree that once you get past a point, playability to price ratio tops off. This is the only reason I do not have anything better than my Yamaha, Pearl, Buffet or my Miyazawa. I could spend 4 times the money, and not get a flute tha plays or sound much better.
One thing we forget is what a step up instrument is suppose to mean. Obviously, the example you used is a student that was already good. Therefore, and step up instrument would make a difference. Often times, I see students buy a step up instrument because they think it is time, but they really do not have what it takes to get anything out of it. What is worse are the students that use their instrument as a crutch, or excuse as to why they are not as good as they should be. I have also seen some students come from poor families that play great, but struggle trying to keep their cheap instrument adjusted. Partly because they practice so much. Of course, when I see a student like this, occasionally I loose one of my flutes as a donation to the cause. Yes I give my flutes away on occasion.(This gives me the perfect excuse to go shopping for a replacement!) Funny, I have never sold or traded in a flute. I have always found a place I can donate my under used instruments. If price were always a factor of how good a flute will sound, then how do you explain people who can sound good on a $10.00 recorder, Bamboo flute, or a flute made from PVC pipe.
No matter what, if a person comes up to me and asks me about improving their sound, I will listen to them play first, then I will conclude if a new flute will make a difference. In most cases it just doesnt.
As far as what other people think, next to some of these classical flute experts that operate in the realm of Science Fiction, I find the I am my worse critique. I have found when it comes to an audience, as long as they recognize the tune, then they will think you are good. Most people could not tell the difference between one flute of the other.
Phineas
Flute Student....for life.