Any suggestions?

Band_twink_14 · Post by **Band_twink_14** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:21 pm

I'm planing on buying a step-up flute. Does anyone have any suggestions? My lessons instructor said she'd help me fined one, but I was wondering what the better names are for step-up flutes?

flutepicc06 · Post by **flutepicc06** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:27 pm

Any reputable brand would be fine as long as it was a good match for your playing. A search of the forum for our FAQ thread should give you a list of makers to look into when buying an intermediate instrument, as well as much more information about the testing process, etc. Your teacher will likely have some ideas of her own too.

MeLizzard · Post by **MeLizzard** » Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:09 pm

Check out the FAQ, but start with Armstrong, Emerson, Yamaha, Jupiter (711), Trevor James, Miyazawa, Muramatsu (EX), and Pearl. Expect to spend somewhere between $1000 and $3000 to make an upgrade worth making (from a beginner's flute). Please heed your teacher's advice (if you trust this person!?!), as I can attest to the tension which arises after a student ignores my advice, and goes home and buys something super-cheap or "more convenient" from an online retailer which doesn't meet their needs. Recently it was a $600 "silver, open-hole flute, B foot" with a recognisable name on it, but it wasn't made like the rest of that company's flutes, or even at the same factory. Today was Solo & Ensemble, and as her quartet played, I could hear her pitch and color not matching in several spots. Player error can account for only a small portion of this problem, in the case of this particular flute.

sakuramimato · Post by **sakuramimato** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:09 am

I'll give you a warning on Gemeinhardts from experience. I play on a 3SB and it was nice to play starting out with it, but it's not very nice sounding in the upper register where the notes come out really thin, and with the repertoire I play now, I really need the upper register to sing, but the flute's just giving me too much trouble, so I have plans to upgrade to a pro flute soon.

Most of the people here have suggested talking to your private teacher or going to a local dealer to play test some.

Jennifer Cluff [http://jennifercluff.com] has a lot of good tips on looking for step-up flutes. She seems to like Altus' Azumi line.

MonikaFL · Post by **MonikaFL** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:40 am

sakuramimato wrote:I'll give you a warning on Gemeinhardts from experience. I play on a 3SB and it was nice to play starting out with it, but it's not very nice sounding in the upper register where the notes come out really thin, and with the repertoire I play now, I really need the upper register to sing, but the flute's just giving me too much trouble, so I have plans to upgrade to a pro flute soon.

I had a Gemeinhardt as my step-up flute and outgrew it within a year.

For the same reasons Sakura just mentioned... plus, it had a horrible scale - there were particular notes that were just SO far off the scale I couldn't play them in tune even with alternate fingerings.

Many of my students have Yamaha intermediate flutes and they LOVE them.

MeLizzard · Post by **MeLizzard** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:58 pm

In my playing (two old Gemeinhardts, before my current flute) and studio teaching experience, these flutes will eventually limit your progess, maybe quickly. If you want to consider Gemeinhardt at all, take a look at the new Brio series. These have a Dana Sheridan-designed headjoint, and some tweaking to the previously-used mechanism design. They still wouldn't be my first choice, depending on my goals, that is. My students have been enjoying great success with Yamaha 500 and 600 flutes, some higher-end Armstrongs (Heritage), and Muramatsu EX.

flute.loops16 · Post by **flute.loops16** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:11 pm

I
would recommend
a Yamaha.
Like
definantly.

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:54 pm

MeLizzard wrote:Check out the FAQ, but start with Armstrong, Emerson, Yamaha, Jupiter (711), Trevor James, Miyazawa, Muramatsu (EX), and Pearl. Expect to spend somewhere between $1000 and $3000 to make an upgrade worth making (from a beginner's flute). Please heed your teacher's advice (if you trust this person!?!), as I can attest to the tension which arises after a student ignores my advice, and goes home and buys something super-cheap or "more convenient" from an online retailer which doesn't meet their needs. Recently it was a $600 "silver, open-hole flute, B foot" with a recognisable name on it, but it wasn't made like the rest of that company's flutes, or even at the same factory. Today was Solo & Ensemble, and as her quartet played, I could hear her pitch and color not matching in several spots. Player error can account for only a small portion of this problem, in the case of this particular flute.

Yes, if you can trust your teacher, follow his/her advice. When I upgraded, I was torn between two teachers [one that I studied with in high school, and still study with over the summer, and one that I study with through the school year]. My "summer" teacher recommended, and personally though a Miyazawa fit me and my needs the most. My "School" year teacher felt that a Powell was more what I needed. So, when It came down to it, I liked Miyazawa the best, and purchased from that company. [In the end, I heeded very little of my "school year" professor's advice, but I felt that she was a bit too biased because she plays a Powell and has ALWAYS played a Powell or Haynes, and hates Japanese flutes for no reason at all] [My "Summer" professor/ teacher plays a Brannen].

So, follow the advice of your teacher [my scenario was unique by the means of having two teachers, and I had to pick one's advice over the other, and I made the decision by learning as much as I could about flutes, their craftsmanship, repair, etc. etc. and thought Miyazawa was best for me in both quality craftsmanship and sound quality].

I would recommend doing some research on how flutes are constructed and made etc. etc.

Good luck with your search!

sidekicker · Post by **sidekicker** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:22 am

fluteguy18 wrote: [In the end, I heeded very little of my "school year" professor's advice, but I felt that she was a bit too biased because she plays a Powell and has ALWAYS played a Powell or Haynes, and hates Japanese flutes for no reason at all] [My "Summer" professor/ teacher plays a Brannen].

First, good luck with your search. As you can see, we all have varying opinions here. But I wanted to address the above because of a comment made to me recently regarding my own playing style/preferences. I hope it's not too off-topic. Forgive me if it is. But maybe a little history, as I remember it at least

, can be helpful here.

I don't know the age of the school year teacher referenced above, but if she's in the ballpark of my own age, then I understand that sentiment to an extent. I'm not at all picking on fluteguy, but I want to point out that back in the mid- to late-70s, if you wanted a professional flute in the U.S. there really wasn't anything else other than Powell or Haynes back then and their quality, IMHO, was unmatched. They made great flutes and, to my recollection, either was the "Rolls Royce" of professional flutes, i.e., if you wanted to be a professional, then you had better get in line and get one of these instruments.

It typically took about 2 years from the time you ordered until they would let you know that your name was up and they were ready to start making your flute. And you basically got what they sent you (there were no various heads to choose from; generally, the only "options" I remember at the time was whether it was a b or c foot, or gold or silver). I bought a used Haynes made in the mid-60s, and was unusually young to have that type of instrument at that time.

The Japanese brands then burst onto the market, with cheaper prices, and great big brassy sounds. Muramatsu was first, if I remember correctly. In any case, there became a trend toward going Japanese instead of "Boston" for many flutists because Powell and Haynes, as lovely as they were, still did not produce the big sound that Muramatsu, et. al. could, even though the Japanese flutes lacked (at that time) very much of a tonal palette. Frankly, I hated the early Japanese flutes because they were nothing but added volume. But many were attracted to them because of not only that, but that you could get one faster. So, many went in that direction because they had orchestra conductors that wanted bigger sounds from the principals.

The reason I say all this is that some of us, I think, are just "Boston" players (I'm apparently one of them, according to the person I talked to; playing on an old Haynes w/ either a silver Burkart head or a gold Brannen head) and some are more "Japanese" in our styles. There is no right or wrong label; it's just a difference in preferences and playing styles. The Japanese flutes, IMHO, have gone way up in quality, while I've seen the maker of my beloved Haynes go way down over the years.

Many flutists, myself included (and perhaps fluteguy's other teacher), have a natural bias toward the "Boston" type instrument (Powell, Haynes, etc.) and against Japanese instruments because that's how we grew up and those initial experiences we had unfortunately haven't broken away. It doesn't excuse it; it just explains it (hopefully). I will say that I played on a Miyazawa very recently that I thought was absolutely wonderful, especially given my comment here a while back that I hated all things Miyazawa. So I've changed my mind on that somewhat. But some of us just didn't have these types of choices growing up. The good part is that times have changed. But I'm not sure if the wide variety we have now makes it any easier

.

But to answer the question posed in this thread, I agree with just about everything said. Go with what feels right for you and be quided in the process by your teacher. In many ways, the "upgrade" period is the hardest for any flutist (as opposed to looking for a "professional" flute). I had two Gemmies (one was the "upgrade") and outgrew them both within just a few years.

SK

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 am

Absolutely sidekicker. With the "Powell" teacher, she was in college in the late 70's, and she was taught by Doriot Dwyer of the Boston Conservatory. So, you can definately see why there is such a bias towards Boston flutes [from everything I hear about Mrs. Dwyer she is a very straightforward demanding and biased woman.... no offense intended]. With my "Brannen" teacher, she finished her masters degree around 2001, and she is about 11 years younger, and has had more options.

So, I definately understand where they are both coming from, and respect both opinions. But, when it came down to picking MY instrument, I took a little bit of both opinions, and did a lot of testing and research on my own [with multiple individuals as extra sets of ears] and finally settled on my Miya.

fluttiegurl · Post by **fluttiegurl** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:34 am

I too have had the experience where I was torn by two ideas. My first teacher played on a Haynes and nothing else. Of corse, his was purchased in the 70's. The next teacher I worked with had a great love for Muramatsu, and the third has a wonderful Brannen (I believe she still has it) even though these were not exactly well known at the time. When I was finally, after many years, looking to buy a handmade, these were obviously the first I tried. But I knew that the decission had to be mine based on how the instrument played for me. Keep in mind that I was older and without a teacher at the time.

When I work with students upgrading, I will often go with them to the stores (we sometimes go as far as 3 hours away) and will sometimes get some on trial from fluteworld. I want to hear them play because I want to make sure they are not looking at the bells and whistles instead of listening. Keep in mind that some of my students are as young as 10 when they make their first upgrades and I have had a 14 year old go handmade (parent's idea, not mine

). These students are not as mature and will buy based on what a flute looks like if I let them. After they have played many flutes, I tell them what they sounded best on to me, but let the ultimate decission be theirs. I try very hard to not push what I play at the time, partly because it changes from time to time I am sure, but mostly because it has to be what they feel best on.

sidekicker · Post by **sidekicker** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:50 am

fluteguy18 wrote:Absolutely sidekicker. With the "Powell" teacher, she was in college in the late 70's, and she was taught by Doriot Dwyer of the Boston Conservatory. So, you can definately see why there is such a bias towards Boston flutes [from everything I hear about Mrs. Dwyer she is a very straightforward demanding and biased woman.... no offense intended].

It seems your "Powell" teacher is a little older than I (by about 10 yrs maybe), but that reinforces the reason for the bias in my mind even more. That's because the period of time she was probably shopping around for a "professional" instrument also coincides with what I would refer to as the "golden era" for Powell and Haynes (roughly 1960-78 or so), and the instruments (hand)made during that period are generally considered to be of a higher quality by many people. I had no idea at the time I bought my "used" Haynes that it was going to turn out to be one of those gems; but I'm sure glad to have lucked out on it

. I will never get rid of it. But on the other hand, it's highly unlikely I'd ever buy another (new) Haynes.

I can't really speak to Ms. Dwyer's teaching habits, except to say that she is a remarkable woman. If I recall correctly, she was the first female principal flute in a major American orchestra and finally broke through the glass ceiling in the 50s to make way for a long overdue and refreshing trend of female principals in our orchestras that survives today. But nothing you said, at least in my mind, was offensive toward her at all; it was just a description of the info you had about her. Although apparently I'm of the "Boston" type, I am a NYC conservatory-trained flutist. Maybe it's different down there. I don't recall my teacher ever giving a flip about what type of instrument I was playing on so long as I was able to accomplish what he wanted from me. Although he was quite demanding, if I could play Jean-Jean etudes to his liking on a "student" level Gemmie, I can rather confidently say that he wouldn't have cared

.

Again, go with what's right for you and get as much guidance as possible during the process. Also, fluteguy is dead on right about bringing other sets of ears with you if at all possible. During my recent headjoint excursion, I intentionally brought with me a non-flutist buddy because I wanted him to hear the differences, not just me. I thought if the differences were obvious to him, then they were definitely present. Plus, he could describe what he was hearing to me; and our views sometimes did not match. It made all the difference in the world. Having other listeners, and taking your time looking (and sometimes waiting in agony) for the best fit for you is critical because what you may be hearing while you are playing is not always what is coming across 6 or more feet away.

Just some more thoughts. Sorry for being so long-winded. I have court today, so lawyer-mode has already kicked in

.

SK

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:29 am

Yeah, from what I hear, Ms. Dwyer is very strict, and only likes [and has only ever played on ] american made flutes. She gave my current professor a loan so she could buy her Powell, and from what I can tell, my professor could never please her. She said that there were times when Ms. Dwyer wouldnt say anything to her at all when she came in for her lesson.... so my prof would play her scales. Then, chances are, she would have to leave because they weren't "good enough" and she would have to come back the next day.

But, she said there were days that even though Dwyer was very scarry, she was wonderful at the same time.

Currently, [sorry to have gone astray from the subject

] my professor is finishing her dissertation, and it is a Biography of Ms. Dwyer... when Dwyer read it, and read the chapter of her teaching style, she commented: "It sounds like hell!"

[pardon my vocabulary, but it was merely a quote]

But definately take advice with a grain of salt, get what you and your teacher both like and are willing to comprimise on if there is a dispute, and bring an extra set[s] of ears.

sidekicker · Post by **sidekicker** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:41 pm

I realize we're straying a bit from the posted topic, but we must all realize and, unfortunately accept, the fact that the flute/music world can often be a weird one. It was one of the main reasons I quit playing professionally. My teacher could not have been any kinder to me during the whole time I studied with him; yet, I would hear stories throughout the day about him throwing music stands at people, storming out of the studio (and not returning), and strange things like that. Julius Baker rudely, IMO, snarfed down a bagel and ordered out for even more food during my Juilliard audition (yes, while I was playing), convincing me that I never wanted to set foot in that place again. And I didn't.

It's really one of those heat/kitchen things if one chooses to go down that path. I once had the principal clarinetist slap me across the back of my head in a rehearsal because when I scooted my chair back a bit I almost disrupted her reed-moistening apparatus. She also called me something, loudly, that I won't repeat here. And I've sat next to oboists so obsessed about their reeds (and every other potential disaster they can conjure up) that the entire wind section gets riled up and stressed. Orchestra people (including those teaching in our conservatories) can sometimes be quite strange, unpredictable, and (at least in my case) even physically abusive.

SK

fluteguy18 · Post by **fluteguy18** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:17 am

sidekicker wrote: Orchestra people (including those teaching in our conservatories) can sometimes be quite strange, unpredictable.

SK

Amen.