HELP PLEASE: Yamaha YFL-461H (brand new): A-440 or A-442?

[andy957]

I just bought a new Yamaha YFL-461H. Granted, I am a beginner but I'm noticing that when working with a tuner (and I have two of them), every note is a semitone sharp, meaning, for example, if I am fingering a "G", it's showing G# on the tuner. This is when the tuner is set to 440. If I change the tuner to 442, the intonation looks to be about right.

Is this my fault as a beginner, or do Yamaha (or other new instruments nowadays) come as A-442 out of the box?

HELP! Thanks.

[flutepicc06]

2 hertz should not account for a full semitone, though many flutes are built at 442 nowadays so that you can play with a wider range of ensembles. My Tom Green is built at A-442, and it does not give me any issues with playing in tune. Is there any chance that you've wound up with an Open G# system flute? That would account for it sounding a G# when you finger G. You may also be simply pushing every pitch upwards, though this becomes so difficult to do as you move around the range that even most professional players would have a lot of difficulty with it, so I have my doubts as to whether that could be the issue. Are you sure you have the correct fingerings? Check what you're playing against the fingering chart at www.wfg.woodwind.org

[andy957]

2 hertz should not account for a full semitone, though many flutes are built at 442 nowadays so that you can play with a wider range of ensembles. My Tom Green is built at A-442, and it does not give me any issues with playing in tune. Is there any chance that you've wound up with an Open G# system flute? That would account for it sounding a G# when you finger G. You may also be simply pushing every pitch upwards, though this becomes so difficult to do as you move around the range that even most professional players would have a lot of difficulty with it, so I have my doubts as to whether that could be the issue. Are you sure you have the correct fingerings? Check what you're playing against the fingering chart at www.wfg.woodwind.org

Thanks for the quick reply, as always. It's not only the G, it's every note, regardless. I am using the 'official' fingering chart. Never heard of the "open G# system", I'll have to check with my dealer and teacher if this might be the case. I have a feeling it's the player (me) and not the instrument, but want to be sure before returning it. Thanks very much.

[flutepicc06]

2 hertz should not account for a full semitone, though many flutes are built at 442 nowadays so that you can play with a wider range of ensembles. My Tom Green is built at A-442, and it does not give me any issues with playing in tune. Is there any chance that you've wound up with an Open G# system flute? That would account for it sounding a G# when you finger G. You may also be simply pushing every pitch upwards, though this becomes so difficult to do as you move around the range that even most professional players would have a lot of difficulty with it, so I have my doubts as to whether that could be the issue. Are you sure you have the correct fingerings? Check what you're playing against the fingering chart at www.wfg.woodwind.org

Thanks for the quick reply, as always. It's not only the G, it's every note, regardless. I am using the 'official' fingering chart. Never heard of the "open G# system", I'll have to check with my dealer and teacher if this might be the case. I have a feeling it's the player and not the instrument, but want to be sure before returning it. Thanks very much.

Chances are it's not Open G#. These are very rare on new flutes (usually special order), and on a midrange instrument, I'm not sure Yamaha would even consider building the different mechanism. However, it might account for what you're experiencing, so no harm in investigating. It's quite difficult to give any really valid suggestions without being able to observe your playing, but do an experiment. If you can (I don't know what kind of range you have), play E3 and see and if it still shows up as sharp. That particular note should be more difficult to force sharp (if it is player related), and should show up at least as the proper note. If it still is sharp, there's likely something wrong flutewise....If not, perhaps something on the player side of things.

[andy957]

2 hertz should not account for a full semitone, though many flutes are built at 442 nowadays so that you can play with a wider range of ensembles. My Tom Green is built at A-442, and it does not give me any issues with playing in tune. Is there any chance that you've wound up with an Open G# system flute? That would account for it sounding a G# when you finger G. You may also be simply pushing every pitch upwards, though this becomes so difficult to do as you move around the range that even most professional players would have a lot of difficulty with it, so I have my doubts as to whether that could be the issue. Are you sure you have the correct fingerings? Check what you're playing against the fingering chart at www.wfg.woodwind.org

Thanks for the quick reply, as always. It's not only the G, it's every note, regardless. I am using the 'official' fingering chart. Never heard of the "open G# system", I'll have to check with my dealer and teacher if this might be the case. I have a feeling it's the player and not the instrument, but want to be sure before returning it. Thanks very much.

Chances are it's not Open G#. These are very rare on new flutes (usually special order), and on a midrange instrument, I'm not sure Yamaha would even consider building the different mechanism. However, it might account for what you're experiencing, so no harm in investigating. It's quite difficult to give any really valid suggestions without being able to observe your playing, but do an experiment. If you can (I don't know what kind of range you have), play E3 and see and if it still shows up as sharp. That particular note should be more difficult to force sharp (if it is player related), and should show up at least as the proper note. If it still is sharp, there's likely something wrong flutewise....If not, perhaps something on the player side of things.

Sorry but if I look at the fingering chart at the website you mentioned above, there is no E3, the low E is listed as "E4" and then goes up progressively. Or am I missing something? Sorry to sound so stupid, but I'm a beginner. By the way, if I pull the headjoint out about 1/2 inch, it's in tune.

[flutepicc06]

Thanks for the quick reply, as always. It's not only the G, it's every note, regardless. I am using the 'official' fingering chart. Never heard of the "open G# system", I'll have to check with my dealer and teacher if this might be the case. I have a feeling it's the player and not the instrument, but want to be sure before returning it. Thanks very much.

Chances are it's not Open G#. These are very rare on new flutes (usually special order), and on a midrange instrument, I'm not sure Yamaha would even consider building the different mechanism. However, it might account for what you're experiencing, so no harm in investigating. It's quite difficult to give any really valid suggestions without being able to observe your playing, but do an experiment. If you can (I don't know what kind of range you have), play E3 and see and if it still shows up as sharp. That particular note should be more difficult to force sharp (if it is player related), and should show up at least as the proper note. If it still is sharp, there's likely something wrong flutewise....If not, perhaps something on the player side of things.

Sorry but if I look at the fingering chart at the website you mentioned above, there is no E3, the low E is listed as "E4" and then goes up progressively. Or am I missing something? Sorry to sound so stupid, but I'm a beginner. By the way, if I pull the headjoint out about 1/2 inch, it's in tune.

There are 2 ways of notating a specific pitch. One uses the piano as the base, so the middle C on a piano is C4 (the fourth C a piano can play). Many flutists (myself included) use a flute-centric system where middle C is C1 (the first C a flute can play). So the E3 I was talking about is listed as E6 on that fingering chart. One other possibility (also very unlikely) is that it's pitched in Db. They haven't produced Db flutes for decades though, especially not midrange instruments, so odds are EXCELLENT that it is not one of these, however, that would explain why it sounds a semitone above the note you're fingering. Since you are a beginner, perhaps the easiest and most reliable way to determine if it's an equipment problem or a player problem would be to take the flute to a tech for a looking over.

[deina-kun]

Check the cork placement in your headjoint? That might help.

[flutepicc06]

Check the cork placement in your headjoint? That might help.

If it's out of place enough to make the fingering for G sound a G#, the flute is not going to consistently play a half step higher. It's just going to be ridiculously difficult to figure out any trend in the tuning. The cork may be part of the difficulty, but I still suspect something else. I reread your last post, and that is a huge amount to have to pull the head out to play in tune. Most flutes are built to have the head out just a few millimeters, rather than half an inch. As I suggested above, take the flute to a tech and see what they have to say about the situation. Working with a good (live) teacher would also be of great benefit if you're not already.

[MonikaFL]

Just thinking, because you mentioned you're a beginner... are you blowing quite a bit of air to produce a sound on your flute? Oftentimes beginners overblow, which of course will result in sharp playing. You could also be aiming the airstream too high, or the headjoint may be rolled out too much when you are playing. Definitely get the advice of a teacher, someone who can watch what's going on.

[andy957]

Check the cork placement in your headjoint? That might help.

I asked my dealer last night about this issue (she's a professional flutist), and she told me all new instruments, regardless of brand, are being made at 442 to be more compatible with orchestras around the world, and that if I need 440, I have to pull the headjoint out accordingly. To get to 440, I need a good 3/4 to 1 inch, which I find a little absurd.

She had me check the position of the cork by using the Yamaha cleaning rod which, at the reverse end has notches to test this. The notch is supposed to appear at the exact midpoint of the embouchure hole for the intonation to be correct, and indeed it did.

I may still take it down there today to have her look at it. I was really surprised, as I thought that everything (at least in North America) is 440.

Thanks for all your feedback. I have read everyone's comments and taken them all very seriously.

[andy957]

Just thinking, because you mentioned you're a beginner... are you blowing quite a bit of air to produce a sound on your flute? Oftentimes beginners overblow, which of course will result in sharp playing. You could also be aiming the airstream too high, or the headjoint may be rolled out too much when you are playing. Definitely get the advice of a teacher, someone who can watch what's going on.

Thanks, this is very possible, and precisely why I am trying to narrow down if it's student- or instrument-related. I think I'll take it to the dealer today and ask them to test it out (they have trained techs on site).

[sidekicker]

I asked my dealer last night about this issue (she's a professional flutist), and she told me all new instruments, regardless of brand, are being made at 442 to be more compatible with orchestras around the world, and that if I need 440, I have to pull the headjoint out accordingly.

I don't think this is an accurate characterization. True, there has been a trend toward A442 in orchestras. But I think it's stretching too far to say that all new instruments are now made at that pitch "regardless of brand". One can now have that as an option when purchasing a new flute, and many flutists (especially those playing in the higher pitched orchestras) are doing so these days. However, plenty of people still buy and play on flutes at A440 (even in orchestras), and every professional flute maker that I know of continues to produce A440 flutes regardless of this trend. Maybe someone else on here has more info on this subject and can correct my perspective if I'm wrong on that.

SK

[flutepicc06]

I asked my dealer last night about this issue (she's a professional flutist), and she told me all new instruments, regardless of brand, are being made at 442 to be more compatible with orchestras around the world, and that if I need 440, I have to pull the headjoint out accordingly.

I don't think this is an accurate characterization. True, there has been a trend toward A442 in orchestras. But I think it's stretching too far to say that all new instruments are now made at that pitch "regardless of brand". One can now have that as an option when purchasing a new flute, and many flutists (especially those playing in the higher pitched orchestras) are doing so these days. However, plenty of people still buy and play on flutes at A440 (even in orchestras), and every professional flute maker that I know of continues to produce A440 flutes regardless of this trend. Maybe someone else on here has more info on this subject and can correct my perspective if I'm wrong on that.

SK

I think you're quite right about that, Sidekicker, and I agree completely. The availability of A-442 flutes is much greater than in the past, but I believe your dealer made a bit of an overgeneralization.

[suoupavlichenko]

Nowadays, instruments dont have their "special" range of notes. All A is suppose to be set at 440Hz. Is your head joint all the way inside your flute? Beginers usually push their joints all the way together. (I did the same too for like half a year). Hold your flute up to a tuner and play a clear A. If you are sharp, pull out. Test it by playing again and keep pushing and pulling until you find he right place. After 3 years on flute, i know quite a lot about them.
A tip for tuning: how to remember to push or pull? Well, think this: the smaller something is, the higher the pitch, so if you are sharp, you want to make it sound lower, like a tuba, so you need to make it "Bigger", so you pull out.
Happy "fluting"!

[JButky]

Nowadays, instruments dont have their "special" range of notes. All A is suppose to be set at 440Hz. Is your head joint all the way inside your flute? Beginers usually push their joints all the way together. (I did the same too for like half a year). Hold your flute up to a tuner and play a clear A. If you are sharp, pull out. Test it by playing again and keep pushing and pulling until you find he right place. After 3 years on flute, i know quite a lot about them.
A tip for tuning: how to remember to push or pull? Well, think this: the smaller something is, the higher the pitch, so if you are sharp, you want to make it sound lower, like a tuba, so you need to make it "Bigger", so you pull out.
Happy "fluting"!

The A=440 or 442 reference is not a tuning reference. As was explained in the barrel and tone hole placement thread in this forum, This represents the scaling (tone hole placements) for a given pitch standard. You need to set your flute up properly to be able to play it most in tune as designed for a given resultant pitch of A= ???

You must set the headjoint draw according to the scaling taking into account the player's final trim of the air column. Do not just pull out or push your headjoint in without understanding what you are doing. You may be making your ability to play in tune harder. I did take time on another forum to post the basic procedure here:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread ... k-Position

Modern flutes from reputable makers will have pretty decent scales and by the manufacturing processes, it is near impossible for the holes to be drawn in the wrong place. If you are playing out of tune, it is a matter of setup, embouchure development and practice. (and of course ear training!)