Where are you flutistically?

[flutepicc06]

Good grief; you two are overly sensitive, IMO. Express a strong opinion here and all of the sudden you are labeled a self-appointed "flute god" and claim to be an "authority on EVERYTHING".

I said it was my opinion. You're free to do with it what you like, if anything at all. But self-censorship of the type you seem to be advocating (i.e., don't express an opinion that might get someone's "panties in a bunch") is not helpful in a forum that should respect and encourage the free flow of ideas.

SK

I have to agree with you on this one, Sidekicker. Forums like these generate discussion, and sometimes that means disagreement. It's part of how we generate new ideas. To censor ourselves not only means providing a less balanced view for other readers, but also that we cut off any potentially enlightening discussion before it can even happen. There are two very valid viewpoints on this issue (as with MANY other flute-related issues), but to suggest that by disagreeing anyone is getting their "panties in a bunch" doesn't make much sense. In fact, until now, it was a relatively interesting (and civil) discussion rather than an argument/namecalling contest/finger pointing extravanganza. Let's not take this any further and get the discussion back on track.

[musical_Kat]

Good grief; you two are overly sensitive, IMO. Express a strong opinion here and all of the sudden you are labeled a self-appointed "flute god" and claim to be an "authority on EVERYTHING".

I said it was my opinion. You're free to do with it what you like, if anything at all. But self-censorship of the type you seem to be advocating (i.e., don't express an opinion that might get someone's "panties in a bunch") is not helpful in a forum that should respect and encourage the free flow of ideas.

SK

LOL...calm down. I said that there are a few people that have been acting like that. I didn't say you. If you feel I was singling you out or even including you then that's not my problem. But I stand by what I said. There are some people who are becoming too diva like and it's very unattractive.

And no....i'm not trying to promote self censorship. I'm just trying to check some egos....honestly you were not one of them.

[fluttiegurl]

Heck. I might as well put my 2 cents in. As for the charts, I have used them for students from time to time, but I do not let them know. My reasons are very simple. There is way too much competition and negativity in the flute world for any player, much less a young one, to consider his/her self better than another, especially based on what pieces they have played or what skills they have learned. Also, mastering a piece vs. learning it can be 2 totally different things. For example, I worked very hard on the Prokofiev Sonata as an undergrad in college. Did I master it? Not at all! I did not have the stamina or the will to actually play the thing at my best. Not to mention what maturity I lacked. In grad school, it was cake, mainly because I had spent time with it before. Another grad student struggled with it, though she had a far better tone quality among other things than me. Which of us would be chosen for a job?

These charts are only meant to be a guide, as I think we can all agree with. They are not be all end all. When it comes down to it, if you can make the flute sound good and are willing to constantly grow and learn, as well as take some criticism, you will have success. I think that is what Phineas was getting at, or at least that is my take. It is wonderful that teachers today have so many resources available. It was not that long ago that teachers/students would have little to no contact with one another. We are all blessed to be in a world where we can share ideas with one another.

[fluteguy18]

hmmm..... while this was a very interesting thread...... there is some underlying conflict poisoning the board. I hope I havent contributed to it and seemed to have a "holier than thou" attitude.....

But, back to the subject, I will finally throw my opinion out there. I agree, this is just a very rough scale, and should be used as such. I just looked back at the scale, and according to that for the most part, I am a high eight or low 9. However, there are things on level 10 that I fall under, and things on level 6 that I fall under. So, while this chart will not gauge everyone correctly, it can give someone an at-a-glance look at things.

[PiccPlayer]

I'm just trying to check some egos.

Except that's not really your job, now is it? I haven't posted much, but I've read a lot of the recent posts for the last couple months, and I like the forum. There's lots of valuable information here, and you starting trouble just because you can't handle some of the ego is not helping anything. You're dealing with musicians for goodness sake! You have to expect some ego! I think you need to get over it or hit the road if you can't handle things here.

[flutepicc06]

I'm just trying to check some egos.

Except that's not really your job, now is it? I haven't posted much, but I've read a lot of the recent posts for the last couple months, and I like the forum. There's lots of valuable information here, and you starting trouble just because you can't handle some of the ego is not helping anything. You're dealing with musicians for goodness sake! You have to expect some ego! I think you need to get over it or hit the road if you can't handle things here.

While I don't like drama here either, I don't think that post is appropriate or necessary, especially considering that the topic had gotten back on track already. Let's please just get over this and stick to the topic of the thread. We're here to talk about flutes and flute playing, not flame each other.

[c_otter]

I've found Jen Cluff's chart an interesting comparison of different grading systems. While trying to figure out 'where do I fit on this scale', I've realized that how I rate things difficulty-wise depends on my own strengths and weaknesses.

So where do I put myself when my fingers remember scales etc that my brain has forgotten? It's all good as long as the brain does not get in the way.

[MonikaFL]

I think it's more of an issue of a small handful of people making sweeping statements... that if someone doesn't agree with their point of view, or seem to do things a different way, then that person "shouldn't be teaching" and statements such as that. That's just not very constructive.

I think it's important to be careful with the way we present our opinions/thoughts on this board... with the way we word things. I'm not saying we should tip-toe around one another... but just that we should be sure we are showing a mutual respect for others before clicking "submit". We have all kinds of people on this board - younger and older players, amateurs, semi-professional, and professionals. There's room for everyone.

I love what fluttiegirl said a few posts back:

It is wonderful that teachers today have so many resources available. It was not that long ago that teachers/students would have little to no contact with one another. We are all blessed to be in a world where we can share ideas with one another.

[fluttiegurl]

MonikaFL,
Thanks! BTW, I just checked out your web site and was very impressed. Good work!

c_otter,
I think you have definately hit something. We are all very different and weall have strengths and weaknesses. The biggest key is consistancy in playing which comes with consistancy in practice. Focusing on one or two things at a time is often very productive. I often choose pieces for students based on what they need to learn at a given time. Once they have mastered the piece, they should be able to retain that skill.

I tend to question whether or not we should try to rate ourselves, or even have someone do it for us. I love to play on master classes. For one thing, I look much younger than I am, so clinicians tend to think I am only in high school, which gives me a HUGE ego boost. . . back on topic In a master class, you get an honest first impression from someone whose job is to help you play better in a matter of a few minutes. They do not try to catagorize you or tell you that you adhere to a certain level of playing. In these settings, I often discover hidden things that I may not have noticed otherwise. We should all be constantly learning. I also like to teach master classes, for the same reasons . . . except for the age thing . When I work only a few minutes with a student, I will focus on one or two points to help that student later on. It would be a great travisty to try to grade these students based on a very small cirteria, especially with students who have not had private training. It would also be a travisty to tell a student that he/she is now in a higher grade level because he/she has learned a new skill.

[musical_Kat]

I'm just trying to check some egos.

Except that's not really your job, now is it? I haven't posted much, but I've read a lot of the recent posts for the last couple months, and I like the forum. There's lots of valuable information here, and you starting trouble just because you can't handle some of the ego is not helping anything. You're dealing with musicians for goodness sake! You have to expect some ego! I think you need to get over it or hit the road if you can't handle things here.

LOL...i'm sorry if you think that egos just go with the territory and I should just "get over it" but I am also a musician as is everyone in my family. We choose our attitude and the way that we treat people. You can choose to be respectful of others opinions. We can choose to admit that there might possibly be other ways of doing things that might not be the way we would have done something. What's right for us is not always right for everyone. You can't just give everyone a free pass....oh we're musicians so we can act arrogant and no one will really notice. That's not how the real world works. We have to remember that the world of music exists inside the everyday world so the rules of conduct of the everyday world have to be respected in the world of music. There is no excuse. Now I've said my peace. I'm done. I'm not going to be involved in a long drawn out battle of the posts. I simply had to respond since it IS my RIGHT to say what I feel.

[sidekicker]

I think it's more of an issue of a small handful of people making sweeping statements... that if someone doesn't agree with their point of view, or seem to do things a different way, then that person "shouldn't be teaching" and statements such as that. That's just not very constructive.

Monika --

I really think you have misread the point I was trying to make, or I didn't make it very well. In either case, I apologize if in the wire-crossing it came across in a negative way. All I was trying to say is that teachers really shouldn't be recommending music for students that they have not studied themselves. In other words, throwing music at kids based on a ranking that Flute World or some other "guide maker" puts together. IMO, that's a lazy way of teaching. IMO="in my opinion". So, take it or leave it; I really don't care.

I realize there is tons of music out there for flutists to learn. But it's just wrong, IMO, not to take the time to study the piece yourself and match that with a particular student's personal abilities and goals. You can call that a "sweeping statement" if you want, but it's still just my opinion and not a Supreme Court decision. Some might agree and some might not. In any case, it might be constructive to someone, somewhere; just as constructive as perhaps your implied position that what I've suggested is sometimes not necessary, i.e. that it's perfectly fine to rely upon these guides as a tool without studying a piece of music yourself because there is just too much music out there to know everything. I know you didn't say that directly, but in my mind it logically flows from the opinion you expressed. There is just no substitute, IMO, for a teacher knowing the music very well before it is suggested as part of a student's curriculum. That was my point.

SK

[MonikaFL]

No, I agree completely with that sidekicker. You are right, a teacher should never teach a piece they haven't studied themselves. But since we were discussing these charts and their use, it seemed as if you were implying that using one as a teacher automatically meant the teacher hadn't taken the time to learn the piece. I apologize if I misunderstood.

[Phineas]

My 2 pennies on the FLUTE GOD thing

We as people have a tendency to put people on pedestals they never asked to be put on. Then we have the never to shoot them down. Most of the time the people being accused of trying to be FLUTE GODs tend to be more of an issue with the people who bring it up in the first place. As long as I have been here on Fluteland, I have never ran into anything more than people with strong opinions. Thats it.

Perception is a funny device that is often abused by people to shoot other people down. Fortunately, we have control over our own perceptions!

As far as Egos are concerned, everyone should have one to a point. What is the use of being a performer, and having no confidence, or if you do not feel that you are good in some form or fashion. However, whatever you dish out, you better be prepared for the backlash.

Man, the pennies are adding up!

Phineas

[sidekicker]

We as people have a tendency to put people of pedestals they never asked to be put on. Then we have the never to shoot them down. Most of the time the people being accused of trying to be FLUTE GODs tend to be more of an issue with the people who bring it up in the first place.

That's an excellent point. Those here who post a lot, generally, seem to put quite a bit of effort into what they say. In the time I've participated in this forum I don't believe I've ever seen a post that appeared to have a motive behind it other than to try to be of assistance. Unless someone expresses an opinion, whether strong or not, the discussion really doesn't advance much. It's rather shameful, IMO, to diminish those efforts by name-calling and requesting "ego checks". This is not an elementary school playground.

The remedy for encountering an opinion you don't agree with is to state your own competing position and back it up with information, personal experiences, etc. Either get in the game or stay on the sidelines. Unless a post is outwardly and objectively rude (which shouldn't make it past the moderator anyway), opinions here should remain strong and informative.

As far as Egos are concerned, everyone should have one to a point. What is the use of being a performer, and having no confidence, or if you do not feel that you are good in some form or fashion. However, whatever you dish out, you better be prepared for the backlash.

I agree with this totally. One of the things (besides the lack of decent salaries) that makes music careers difficult is over-sensitivity. Music is a tough and competitive world to live in. Nothing is going to change that. So if you are going to participate, then you must find a way to live with it instead of demanding other people change themselves to suit your own personal comfort level.

Again, just my opinion.

SK

[MaYbE.x]

I think I'm at a 7, but I can apparently (according to my music teacher) improve greatly if I just get a new flute.
I played Carnival of Venice last year. I was thrilled when I saw it written there. I'm so lame...
My range is from middle C (low B when I use my friend's flute) to a high F (7 lines above the staff.)
I can recognise any key signature easily. Strangely, I find it easiest to play in C-Flat Major, and A-Flat Minor.
My current flute is a student model, but I've had it for years. I think I've developed an emotional attachment to it, and I don't think I could bear to trade it in, and I don't have the money to buy a new one without turning it in. =[