I am a "medium quality" flute player. I would lke to become a better flute player, but will probably never become a truly dedicated, great player.
I am looking to buy a better flute. I have played the Yamaha professional models YFL-584H and YFL-784H. When playing, I cannot tell the difference between the two. In reading Yamaha's literature, their models YFL-584H, YFL-684H, and YFL-784H seem to be all designed the same. The only difference seems to be the amount of silver, rather than nickel silver.
Since the YFL-784H is much more expensive, I am trying to decide if it would be worth it to buy it, or just go with the YFL-584H which is the same design. Please give me some opinions on whether it would be worth it to buy a flute with more silver.
Thank you for your help.
Difference Between Yamaha Professional Model Flutes
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
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Konstantin
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fluttiegurl
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- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:05 pm
In truth, if you do not notice a difference when playing, I personally don't think the higher model is worth the money. If both flutes have the same style headjoint (I am pretty sure they do), there will be little to no difference in the sound which is the most important factor. I have found that Yamaha's tend to be solid flutes, so I would not worry about buying the lower end flute if that is the sound you desire.
Have you tried other flutes? Just curious because you should keep in mind that there are hundreds of flute makers out there, and Yamaha tends to be on the top end of pricing. You may fiund a handmade flute for what you are looking at in a 600 or 700 series Yamaha. Also, a company may call a line of flutes "professional", but that does not necessarily mean these are the best flutes they produce. It is just an industry overused term. Nearly every mainstream manufacturer uses this term at one point, and some of these so call pro flutes are not exactly something I would recommend to anyone.
Try to keep in mind that the flute itself is merely a tool. Yes, some are better than others (obviously), but playing on a flute that is labeled "Professional" does not make you a better player. That comes from the work you put into it. Don't sell yourslef short! With practice, you may become a great player
Good luck in your search for a better flute. Keep us posted.
Have you tried other flutes? Just curious because you should keep in mind that there are hundreds of flute makers out there, and Yamaha tends to be on the top end of pricing. You may fiund a handmade flute for what you are looking at in a 600 or 700 series Yamaha. Also, a company may call a line of flutes "professional", but that does not necessarily mean these are the best flutes they produce. It is just an industry overused term. Nearly every mainstream manufacturer uses this term at one point, and some of these so call pro flutes are not exactly something I would recommend to anyone.
Try to keep in mind that the flute itself is merely a tool. Yes, some are better than others (obviously), but playing on a flute that is labeled "Professional" does not make you a better player. That comes from the work you put into it. Don't sell yourslef short! With practice, you may become a great player
Good luck in your search for a better flute. Keep us posted.-
fluteguy18
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- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
I would try these flutes with different headjoints to see if you can find a difference between the two [of course trying both flutes with each new headjoint you try to get a good test run of each]. That might help you decide a little.
Again, like fluttiegurl said, I would make sure to try other flutes in that price range as well.
But, if you have narrowed it down to these 3 yamahas, then I am on the fence with this one.
Yamaha flutes are quite solid, and should not give you undue trouble. The 500 series is cheaper, lighter in weight [nickle silver is lighter than sterling silver], and good flute all around. But, eventually the plating will wear through [but not for a VERY VERY long time if taken care of because Yamaha does a good job with plating].
However, from a technitian's perspective, if you are going to play this flute very long term, then it might [emphasis on MIGHT] be beneficial to go up to the 700 series. It is far easier to work on an all silver instrument because the tech doesnt have to worry about plating. So, if your keys get horribly bent, and they must be bent back into place, then solid silver would be easier to work with in the respect that the tech would not have to worry about the plating being affected. Scratches can be buffed out of solid silver, and solid silver can be engraved without damaging plating. On the other hand, the flute is slightly more heavy and the price tag is higher.
But, take my advice with a grain of salt. I almost bought an all solid silver Miyazawa, but last minute I decided that I liked the 202 model a lot more [pretty much the same specs as the 500 series: sterling head, and nickle silver body, foot and keys]. I am very happy with my decision. I found the nickle silver flute to respond better than the sterling silver flute [while using the exact same headjoint even!]. So while it may sound like I am advocating the 700 series, I am not. I just see huge benefits and huge drawbacks with each. So, with my flute, I knew that when I bought it, while I was saving money right now, there will probably be a time in the distant future [If I havent bought another flute by that point], it will need to be replated, and plating can be pricey.
So, the choice is yours. If I was in your shoes, and could not tell a difference between the models at all.... I would probably go for the 700 series if I had the money. But that is MY preference, and I am not saying that you SHOULD go for it but rather that this is my opinion. Now, if you can tell the slightest difference, and have the SLIGHTEST preference for one over another, then I would get that one without looking back.
Of course, this advice should be taken with salt, and only after you have tried other flutes in this price range. It is quite possible that you may find another flute for this price that you like much more than any of the Yamaha flutes.
Again, like fluttiegurl said, I would make sure to try other flutes in that price range as well.
But, if you have narrowed it down to these 3 yamahas, then I am on the fence with this one.
Yamaha flutes are quite solid, and should not give you undue trouble. The 500 series is cheaper, lighter in weight [nickle silver is lighter than sterling silver], and good flute all around. But, eventually the plating will wear through [but not for a VERY VERY long time if taken care of because Yamaha does a good job with plating].
However, from a technitian's perspective, if you are going to play this flute very long term, then it might [emphasis on MIGHT] be beneficial to go up to the 700 series. It is far easier to work on an all silver instrument because the tech doesnt have to worry about plating. So, if your keys get horribly bent, and they must be bent back into place, then solid silver would be easier to work with in the respect that the tech would not have to worry about the plating being affected. Scratches can be buffed out of solid silver, and solid silver can be engraved without damaging plating. On the other hand, the flute is slightly more heavy and the price tag is higher.
But, take my advice with a grain of salt. I almost bought an all solid silver Miyazawa, but last minute I decided that I liked the 202 model a lot more [pretty much the same specs as the 500 series: sterling head, and nickle silver body, foot and keys]. I am very happy with my decision. I found the nickle silver flute to respond better than the sterling silver flute [while using the exact same headjoint even!]. So while it may sound like I am advocating the 700 series, I am not. I just see huge benefits and huge drawbacks with each. So, with my flute, I knew that when I bought it, while I was saving money right now, there will probably be a time in the distant future [If I havent bought another flute by that point], it will need to be replated, and plating can be pricey.
So, the choice is yours. If I was in your shoes, and could not tell a difference between the models at all.... I would probably go for the 700 series if I had the money. But that is MY preference, and I am not saying that you SHOULD go for it but rather that this is my opinion. Now, if you can tell the slightest difference, and have the SLIGHTEST preference for one over another, then I would get that one without looking back.
Of course, this advice should be taken with salt, and only after you have tried other flutes in this price range. It is quite possible that you may find another flute for this price that you like much more than any of the Yamaha flutes.
Solid silver flutes are WAY overrated. Just play on it.
When in Japan, I spent a little bit of time with one of the Yamaha flute reps. After testing many Yamaha flutes, I have found that the 500 series is the best bang for the buck out of all of the models I got a chance to try. I could have bought any model under 5000USD and walked out with a YFL514. Frankly, there just was not that much of a difference between the way teh 500 series played and sounded, and the way the 700 series. Mainly because they share the same headjoint.
I also had a chance to get a solid silver Miyazawa, but again liked the sound of the Silver clad flute better. However, I did get the Solid Silver headjoint with the Solid Gold lip plate.
Just my .02 cents
Phineas
When in Japan, I spent a little bit of time with one of the Yamaha flute reps. After testing many Yamaha flutes, I have found that the 500 series is the best bang for the buck out of all of the models I got a chance to try. I could have bought any model under 5000USD and walked out with a YFL514. Frankly, there just was not that much of a difference between the way teh 500 series played and sounded, and the way the 700 series. Mainly because they share the same headjoint.
I also had a chance to get a solid silver Miyazawa, but again liked the sound of the Silver clad flute better. However, I did get the Solid Silver headjoint with the Solid Gold lip plate.
Just my .02 cents
Phineas
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musical_Kat
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Musical_kat
I have owned my Buffet International (SS Head/+SP/Body)model for 15 years. I just recently got a COA on it, and it looks as good as the day I bought it. If you take care of your instrument, and keep it clean, you will keep it for a long time. This instrument has been through Rain, Cold, Sand, chicken grease, and everything else all over the world. (Yes I like fried chicken!)
I will agree that Silver as a metal will last longer than SilverClad/Alloy? Sure it will from a metalurgic point of view. Will it get more of a resale value, maybe. However we should buy instruments to play on, not for resale. I just did not prefer the dark sound of the solid silver Yamahas, so I did not buy one. Just so happens i wound up getting 2 wonderful Japanese flutes for the price of one!
If a person wants a Solid Silver flute, I will not talk any one aganst it. I am just expressing my point of view.
Phineas
PS...I like your new picture!
I have owned my Buffet International (SS Head/+SP/Body)model for 15 years. I just recently got a COA on it, and it looks as good as the day I bought it. If you take care of your instrument, and keep it clean, you will keep it for a long time. This instrument has been through Rain, Cold, Sand, chicken grease, and everything else all over the world. (Yes I like fried chicken!)
I will agree that Silver as a metal will last longer than SilverClad/Alloy? Sure it will from a metalurgic point of view. Will it get more of a resale value, maybe. However we should buy instruments to play on, not for resale. I just did not prefer the dark sound of the solid silver Yamahas, so I did not buy one. Just so happens i wound up getting 2 wonderful Japanese flutes for the price of one!
If a person wants a Solid Silver flute, I will not talk any one aganst it. I am just expressing my point of view.
Phineas
PS...I like your new picture!
Last edited by Phineas on Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fluttiegurl
- Posts: 882
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Two very good points that have been addressed here are that silver clad flutes are lighter in weight (which may be a good or a bad thing depending on the player) and that if they share the same headjoint, they should sound pretty much the same.
As for solid silver holding up better, that depends on a few key factors. 1. Depending on the climate that you live in, silver plating will wear off at different paces. Also factor in acidity in the player's body. Some flute will last many years with no issues in the right environment, others will not. 2. How frequently is the flute played and for how long? In other words, how much is it handled. 3. How long does a player expect to keep this particular flute? I have found that many players who make this upgrade (speaking if the Yamahas in question) make an additional upgrade at some point if they continue their playing careers (though this is definately not always the case). 4. What exactly is your budget? If your budget dictates that you can either buy a decent solid silver flute or a fantastic plated flute with an amazing headjoint, that should be a no brainer. If budget is not a consideration, then there is no need for discussion, but I personally do not think a 700 series Yamaha is worth the $ (my opinion) since it is pretty much the same as the 500. There are much better flutes out there. 5. Finally, does the plating wear truly make any difference in how the flute responds or sounds? In many cases, not at all. As I said before, it is merely a tool. Yes, I like pretty shiney things, but when it comes to my flute, I will take the better sounding instrument any day. For example, I recently sold my beautiful gold flute and bought a 30 year old silver Haynes. I have not regretted it for a second!
Also keep in mind that nearly all flutes, silver or no, have a layer of plating on them that will eventually require tending to if it is played enough. This is the coating on the flute that makes it shine. If the flute has plated keys, that too will be an issue and to be honest, the flutes that I have seen with plating issues have pitted keys first. This is due to the acid in your hands, and your fingers touch the keys more than anywhere else. This is something that we all have and cannot be avoided. So even the pretty solid silver flute can potentially have ugly issues after a few years of heavy playing. Just some food for thought.
As for solid silver holding up better, that depends on a few key factors. 1. Depending on the climate that you live in, silver plating will wear off at different paces. Also factor in acidity in the player's body. Some flute will last many years with no issues in the right environment, others will not. 2. How frequently is the flute played and for how long? In other words, how much is it handled. 3. How long does a player expect to keep this particular flute? I have found that many players who make this upgrade (speaking if the Yamahas in question) make an additional upgrade at some point if they continue their playing careers (though this is definately not always the case). 4. What exactly is your budget? If your budget dictates that you can either buy a decent solid silver flute or a fantastic plated flute with an amazing headjoint, that should be a no brainer. If budget is not a consideration, then there is no need for discussion, but I personally do not think a 700 series Yamaha is worth the $ (my opinion) since it is pretty much the same as the 500. There are much better flutes out there. 5. Finally, does the plating wear truly make any difference in how the flute responds or sounds? In many cases, not at all. As I said before, it is merely a tool. Yes, I like pretty shiney things, but when it comes to my flute, I will take the better sounding instrument any day. For example, I recently sold my beautiful gold flute and bought a 30 year old silver Haynes. I have not regretted it for a second!
Also keep in mind that nearly all flutes, silver or no, have a layer of plating on them that will eventually require tending to if it is played enough. This is the coating on the flute that makes it shine. If the flute has plated keys, that too will be an issue and to be honest, the flutes that I have seen with plating issues have pitted keys first. This is due to the acid in your hands, and your fingers touch the keys more than anywhere else. This is something that we all have and cannot be avoided. So even the pretty solid silver flute can potentially have ugly issues after a few years of heavy playing. Just some food for thought.
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fluteguy18
- Posts: 2311
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:11 pm
Very good point Fluttiegurl. Very solid advice. At times we forget that flutes are just tools and get tied up in the appearance aspect of playing. So, if appearance won't bother you if the plating wears off after 8 years or so, then go with the 500 series. I myself pay close attention to both aspects [music and appearance as a package for a performance] without letting one suffer. So, while tarnish and flaking plating dont bother me up close, if you can see plainly from the audience that the instrument looks to be in poor condition, then it irks me a little.
My largest bit of reasoning for perhaps getting the 700 series, would be if it is highly unlikely that you will be buying a new flute after this one in your lifetime. And this is only because of certain advantages when it comes to repairs over an extended period of time.
But, if I had the choice of getting a decent solid silver flute, or a plated flute that has amazing engineering and a wonderful headjoint, then I would take the plated flute hands down. And, I actually lived up to that statement with my Miya.
So, my final words of advice, is that if there is even a remote chance that you will be upgrading again in the next 10-12 years, [or slightly longer maybe], then go for the 500 series if you can't honestly hear or feel a difference in the way they play. You get much more bang for your buck. But, if you don't think that you will be upgrading for an extended amount of time [15 years +] then I might consider the 600 or 700 series just for sake of repair issues.
Just my last .02
Oh, and BTW, if this didn't make a lot of sense, just chalk it up to lack of sleep and it being somewhat late at night here. I will go back and make it more sensible later if it seems unintelligable.
My largest bit of reasoning for perhaps getting the 700 series, would be if it is highly unlikely that you will be buying a new flute after this one in your lifetime. And this is only because of certain advantages when it comes to repairs over an extended period of time.
But, if I had the choice of getting a decent solid silver flute, or a plated flute that has amazing engineering and a wonderful headjoint, then I would take the plated flute hands down. And, I actually lived up to that statement with my Miya.
So, my final words of advice, is that if there is even a remote chance that you will be upgrading again in the next 10-12 years, [or slightly longer maybe], then go for the 500 series if you can't honestly hear or feel a difference in the way they play. You get much more bang for your buck. But, if you don't think that you will be upgrading for an extended amount of time [15 years +] then I might consider the 600 or 700 series just for sake of repair issues.
Just my last .02
Oh, and BTW, if this didn't make a lot of sense, just chalk it up to lack of sleep and it being somewhat late at night here. I will go back and make it more sensible later if it seems unintelligable.
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Konstantin
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:01 pm
- Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Thank you for all of the comments. I appreciate that they are very well thought out advice and not just bragging comments.
I will explain my situation more fully:
I played trombone semi-professionally for about 25 years. About two years ago, I borrowed my sister's Armstrong student model flute that she played in the early 1970's in elementary school. I started playing it just for fun, and started playing in our small church orchestra. I enjoy playing flute, and am becoming more serious about it, however, not as serious as some people on this board are. There is an odd reason why I am beginning to like playing flute better than trombone. Please keep in mind that I am not criticizing individual trombone players, but they tend to have a "know-it-all" attitude. They also tend to show off and think they are better players than anybody else. I have found that on average, flute players are a nicer group of people to associate with, and much more welcoming to newcomers. This is one reason why I have started playing flute more often. I am speaking of averages here, and realize that there are some very nice trombone players as well.
As far as the look of a flute goes, I really don't care much if the finish starts to come off. This just shows it is a well used instrument. My trombone is an excellent quality Yamaha and now has some finish worn off. I don't care about resale value either, since I am planning to keep the flute and play it, not sell it. I also tend to keep very good care of my instruments, so I don't think maintenance should be a problem.
I do appreciate all of your comments, and will have to make some important decisions soon.
Thank you
I will explain my situation more fully:
I played trombone semi-professionally for about 25 years. About two years ago, I borrowed my sister's Armstrong student model flute that she played in the early 1970's in elementary school. I started playing it just for fun, and started playing in our small church orchestra. I enjoy playing flute, and am becoming more serious about it, however, not as serious as some people on this board are. There is an odd reason why I am beginning to like playing flute better than trombone. Please keep in mind that I am not criticizing individual trombone players, but they tend to have a "know-it-all" attitude. They also tend to show off and think they are better players than anybody else. I have found that on average, flute players are a nicer group of people to associate with, and much more welcoming to newcomers. This is one reason why I have started playing flute more often. I am speaking of averages here, and realize that there are some very nice trombone players as well.
As far as the look of a flute goes, I really don't care much if the finish starts to come off. This just shows it is a well used instrument. My trombone is an excellent quality Yamaha and now has some finish worn off. I don't care about resale value either, since I am planning to keep the flute and play it, not sell it. I also tend to keep very good care of my instruments, so I don't think maintenance should be a problem.
I do appreciate all of your comments, and will have to make some important decisions soon.
Thank you
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musical_Kat
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Wow....i'm moving to Arizona then because although I know several nice flute players I have never known a group of flute players in general to be anything but catty, cocky, and very VERY territorial! But of course that could just be a south florida thing....it's a different breed of musician down here....LOLKonstantin wrote:I have found that on average, flute players are a nicer group of people to associate with, and much more welcoming to newcomers.
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fluttiegurl
- Posts: 882
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musical_Kat,
It is very unfortunate that you feel this way about your area flutists. I have found that as I have grown in both maturity and musically, I see this less, possibly because I do not pay as much attention. In the past five years or so, I have made a lot of wonderful friends in the flute world both locally and beyond.
What I have found in the professional world is very simple, great players are just that, great players. They have no need to be cocky or have attitudes, and I often find that time with the pros that I know is both fun and educational. Average players, at least around here, are the ones to avoid. They tend to make a show of themselves to boost their own self-images. These are the ones I can pick out very quickly and avoid
Why put up with such nonsense? Just remember to keep your attitude in check, practice a lot, and take the rest with a grain of salt. If you don't like thr flute groups in your area, start a new one! 
It is very unfortunate that you feel this way about your area flutists. I have found that as I have grown in both maturity and musically, I see this less, possibly because I do not pay as much attention. In the past five years or so, I have made a lot of wonderful friends in the flute world both locally and beyond.
What I have found in the professional world is very simple, great players are just that, great players. They have no need to be cocky or have attitudes, and I often find that time with the pros that I know is both fun and educational. Average players, at least around here, are the ones to avoid. They tend to make a show of themselves to boost their own self-images. These are the ones I can pick out very quickly and avoid
Why put up with such nonsense? Just remember to keep your attitude in check, practice a lot, and take the rest with a grain of salt. If you don't like thr flute groups in your area, start a new one! -
sidekicker
- Posts: 311
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- Location: Scottish-American in Oklahoma
It's not a south Florida thing at all; one can unfortunately find that type of crap everywhere in the flute world. But Fluttiegurl is right and gives great advice. I'll never understand why flutists, in general, get on such a power trip and become so territorial instead of just focusing on the art. If you want a good taste of it, enroll in one of the NYC conservatories. As much as I loved my teacher there, I absolutely detested the playing atmosphere and even some of my fellow students. There was constant bickering and backbiting (not from me, of course 
) about who got what part in the orchestra, etc. There's also quite a bit of it in the NFA which, IMO, occasionally gets hijacked by second rate flutists who need a place to flex muscle because they can't get playing jobs. (Yes, I expect flack from that last statement ) It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion.
SK
) about who got what part in the orchestra, etc. There's also quite a bit of it in the NFA which, IMO, occasionally gets hijacked by second rate flutists who need a place to flex muscle because they can't get playing jobs. (Yes, I expect flack from that last statement ) It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion. It's just my opinion.SK
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fluttiegurl
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sidekicker,
You definately see where I am coming from. My truest friends in the NFA are nothing but wonderful people with great attitudes, not to mention AMAZING players (fromer young artist winners, etc). The ones that I avoid are the ones who seem to have a chip on their shoulders because of one issue or another, then come to find out, they are not doing anything themselves. That happens everywhere.
As for enroling in a conservatory, I would never put myself through that. I had a bad experience at the university where I did my undergrad that nearly caused me to quit altogether. In this case, I had a teacher who constantly caused tension among the students. In his opinion, that was to better prepare us for the real world. What was that all about? There are enough flutists out there that we can pick and choose who we want to associate with I have enough garbage in my life to let someone else add more. As I began teaching, I vowed to do everything more or less opposite of that teacher. In doing so, I often expect my own students to do an attitude check and make sure that they are inclusive to newcommers. Otherwise, they are not worth my time and can go elsewhere. This has definately proven that it is about the player, not the attitude as some of my students (not to brag) are some of the best in the state. They work hard, and the rewards are plenty!
You definately see where I am coming from. My truest friends in the NFA are nothing but wonderful people with great attitudes, not to mention AMAZING players (fromer young artist winners, etc). The ones that I avoid are the ones who seem to have a chip on their shoulders because of one issue or another, then come to find out, they are not doing anything themselves. That happens everywhere.
As for enroling in a conservatory, I would never put myself through that. I had a bad experience at the university where I did my undergrad that nearly caused me to quit altogether. In this case, I had a teacher who constantly caused tension among the students. In his opinion, that was to better prepare us for the real world. What was that all about? There are enough flutists out there that we can pick and choose who we want to associate with
I have enough garbage in my life to let someone else add more. As I began teaching, I vowed to do everything more or less opposite of that teacher. In doing so, I often expect my own students to do an attitude check and make sure that they are inclusive to newcommers. Otherwise, they are not worth my time and can go elsewhere. This has definately proven that it is about the player, not the attitude as some of my students (not to brag) are some of the best in the state. They work hard, and the rewards are plenty!-
musical_Kat
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:32 am
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- Contact:
Oh I completely agree with you both. I have a few very close friends in the flute world. I tend to stay out of all the melodrama and such but the fact is, it's there and always will be. Unfortunately, as a whole, the dramatics and the attitudes are usually far worse from the flutists. I have always had nothing but wonderful relationships with all the brass players that I have worked with over the years. I don't know...maybe it's a guy thing....maybe all the testosterone keeps the bickering and nagging at bay. LOL....who knows... 
As far as relationships and attitudes from people who play other instruments like brass or percussion or even other woodwinds you have to take into account that you have no reason to compete with them. In my experience a lot of catty flute players regardless of their level of play tend to be hyper competitive. If you can find a group that can move past that competition it can be fantastic.
Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.
Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.