Jade Flutes

[Jaded]

I just acquired two different, jade flutes. I couldn't get a sound out of either one, so I took one to a local music store. The shop repair person, also a flute player, immediately produced a rather nice tone .

These are thick walled, jade flutes. Does anyone have any recommendations with regard to how to approach playing them? I still must struggle to get a tone, and can not reproduce it consistently each time I pick up the instrument.

The embrouchure guides seem designed for flutes with lip plates , because the fellow at the music shop didn't have that little flute player's "smile" due to embrouchure that is recommended elsewhere, he simply turned the flute to roughly 45 degrees and blew into it and across the upper edge, then played the scale. I need to be able to produce a constant tone to play these flutes. I'd appreciate any recommendations . Technically, these are jade dizi flutes. I plug the seventh (membrane) hole with tape.

Thank you in advance for any recommendations.

[flutepicc06]

Well, first the obvious question: Are you already a flute player, or have you decided to start out with these jade flutes?

[Jaded]

I wanted to try an inexpensive flute. This is it. I'm not spending more. I began with a tin whistle.

[fluteguy18]

The 'smile' embouchure is actually not recommended by most quality players. So, he probably had a more developed and loose embouchure.

But, in all basic concepts, making a sound on a flute is quite similiar to blowing across a coke bottle. Or a straw.

Just keep trying. Try aiming down into the hole by maneuvering your lips. You'll get the hang of it.

[flutepicc06]

I wanted to try an inexpensive flute. This is it. I'm not spending more. I began with a tin whistle.

Well that's probably where the problem is. It takes years to develop a solid, flexible embouchure. To expect to pick up these flutes without any previous experience with a similar instrument just isn't realistic. Normally I would strongly suggest finding yourself a teacher, as it seems you're already getting questionable advice (Fluteguy is quite right about the "smiley embouchure"), but you'll probably have a hard time finding someone fluent on the dizi. You might consider starting on Boehm flute, and then figuring out the Dizis from there. If that's not interesting to you, try to find a relatively advanced player to show you how to properly form an embouchure and blow to produce a reliable sound. In any case, it will probably take you a while to be able to play well...Learning to play flute is a long-term endeavor.

[Jaded]

You're both right. The gentleman at the music store already gave me a sort of "lesson" by letting me watch how he formed his mouth, where he placed it, and where he blew to create the solid tone.

I spent some time this evening and got to the point where I could play up and down the scale on one of the dizi's .

They're actually rather nice instruments. The jade makes for a beautiful flute. The one is very Chinese (which means it is likely not going to conform to everyone's tastes), with its dragon and phoenix metal ornamentation, but there is an advantage to the metal band, which, though glued into place, broke free easily and slid down to cover the membrane hole. (I scraped the remaining glue off with my fingernail.) It moved the dragon figurine on the metal band away from the side of my mouth, where it was abrading my face and lip.

As you indicated, my goal will be long tones up and down the scale for some time with these instruments, until I can get to the point where I know where to place my mouth, how to shape it, and where to blow the air to get the proper sound up and down the scale.

If I get to the point where I can play in the base register, I may consider trying some lessons if I can find a party skilled in playing the simple system flute on a thick walled instrument, rather than the standard Boehm system instructor.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.

[flutepicc06]

If I get to the point where I can play in the base register, I may consider trying some lessons if I can find a party skilled in playing the simple system flute on a thick walled instrument, rather than the standard Boehm system instructor.

Wall thickness doesn't make a big difference to who can play a flute (though it does sometimes dictate whether or not they like a given instrument), so anyone with a basis on the Dizi should be fine to learn from. If you want to use the flutes as they are intended, you will need someone fluent on Dizi, rather than just a simple system player, as the Dizi uses some unique techniques and has some unusual musical requirements if you're going to play the music traditionally associated with Dizi. Good luck to you, in any case.

[Jaded]

China has a long and fascinating history, including archaological digs that have revealed 9000 year old simple system flutes made from bone.

My preference, with regard to Chinese flute music, is actually more consistent with the vertical flute repertoire, with its meditative tone. For that, I have a low D cane whistle, which works well for meditative music.

I will probably begin with Irish traditional music on the dizi, with the membrane hole simply taped, until I gain a basic capability relative to generating a consistent and clear tone. For now, it's long tones for weeks, months , whatever proves necessary.

It is truly quite an experience on one of these simple system flutes (particularly if your only prior experience is with a tin whistle) to feel the thick, heavy sides begin to resonate when you strike the proper tone with all fingers on the holes to produce the base tone. The instrument seems to suddenly come to life.

[flutepicc06]

China has a long and fascinating history, including archaological digs that have revealed 9000 year old simple system flutes made from bone.

Very true...In fact, flute is believed to be the second oldest (non-vocal) instrument in existence, after percussion. The oldest evidence of flutes dates to about 43,000 years ago.

I will probably begin with Irish traditional music on the dizi, with the membrane hole simply taped, until I gain a basic capability relative to generating a consistent and clear tone. For now, it's long tones for weeks, months , whatever proves necessary.

Well that should certainly be an interesting combination of various cultures. It should be fine for you to start learning Irish tunes on the flutes you got, but the scale (size and placement of toneholes in conjunction with the bore size, etc.) of an Irish flute (usually a Baroque, one keyed instrument) and a Dizi are noticeably different, so I would not suggest trying to play Irish music with others on the Dizis you have. Depending on the quality of the flutes you've got, they may be very different. If you are interested in doing Irish music (or become interested later), an inexpensive Irish/Baroque flute would be a better choice for that style. As long as you're just using that music for the basics and will be playing the songs alone, they're fine to get you started, though.

Just as a side note, the term "simple system flute" does not apply to Dizis if we're going to be totally accurate, as they have no key system. They certainly are simple flutes, but are not truly simple system flutes. When you begin to see the addition of keys in the baroque/classical era to allow chromaticism, the flutes truly become "simple system" instruments.

[Jaded]

I had always heard the whistle referred to as a simple system fipple flute, and the fingering used referenced as "simple system" fingering, so I made an apparently erroneous assumption with regard to the dizi's.

I do intend to use some software I have to check the tuning and the notes being produced with my computer microphone when I get to the point where I can play the complete base register scale reliably on both instruments. I'd like to know if the scale is consistent with a major, western scale. If so, they should be fine for Irish traditional music, unless the group restricts its whistlers to D major, which I understand is the sensible norm in most session environments. If so, I've got a Clarke Meg that I dearly love. (The Feadog brass I've got is nice for making Irish music sound jazzy.)

Note: I'm not insensitive to the preference of Irish whistlers for Irish instruments. (They don't like the sound of low D, cane whistles from Pakistan either, even if I do! )

[flutepicc06]

A simple tuner would probably be a much easier (and just as effective) way of checking the flute for pitch. My guess is that it will not correspond with a Western scale particularly well, but who knows?

Even if the group does not restrict its players instrument-wise, you'd probably be better off having an instrument that plays in D, as most Irish music is in D or G (or their relative minors). When using simple flutes like the ones you have, chromaticism requires some unwieldy crossfingerings and the like which can be a real encumbrance when you're trying to play in a key that's too far distant from the instrument's "home key."

[Jaded]

I attempted to identify the tunings of each flute tonight in the base register. (I can't seem to get out of the base register for now...)

The Jade Lantian (pale white/green jade) flute tuning with tin whistle fingering and my desperation embouchure and air flow is:

D D# (E + 50 cents) F# G# A A#.

The jade Dragon and Phoenix dizi tuning using tin whistle fingering is a bit highter beginning with:

B C# D# (E + 50 cents) G G# A#.

A fife player who sells his products on-line indicated previously that he designs his fifes so they are either a little flat or a little sharp on specific holes depending on whether a note is typically over or under blown. It is likely that my skill is too limited to render these scales the most authoritative, although the results were reproduce-able.

I suspect dizi masters use a slightly different fingering than with the tin whistle, but I'll stick with simplicity until I cease to feel like my head is going to explode when I attempt to play these instruments due to wasted air trying to find the right place to put my mouth. It appears that if my lower lip is right on the air hole, and the flute is slight tilted back toward my head, there is potential for a consistently reproduce-able playing position.

I may become the first person in history to look into whether it makes any sense to glue a mouthplate to a jade dizi!

[flutepicc06]

I would not recommend gluing a lip plate onto your flute. Those are intended to set the lip at the proper distance from the far edge of the embouchure hole, and flutes designed like Dizis (or even modern Boehm flutes without a thinned head) have already taken this into account. The lip plate is there...The outer edge simply isn't clearly defined. Adding a lip plate on top of this would only complicate things.

The dizi does indeed require different fingerings than a standard tin whistle, particularly once you leave the lowest register. A fingering chart can be found here:

http://www.goamcan.com/imports/How-to-play-dizi.html

Try them out again with the proper fingerings and see what you can get out of them pitch-wise.

[Jaded]

The scales below are subject to 0.50 +/- error, because I had to tongue to get the tones. I watched the notes rise initially then descend to the next lower standard note. (These are fairly large bore flutes relative to the whistles that I'm used to. I don't have the lung capacity to play the entire scale in one breath. After playing these, my feadog seems a lot easier to use... ) The indicated scales are the result of using DIZI fingering given at the link provided in this thread. With this modified fingering, I can make it into the second register.

The highest note in both scales sounds like it is heavily predicated upon harmonics. (If I hadn't just taped up the hole, the dizi membrane would probably make those high notes quite memorable due to the harmonics. ) For some reason, these flutes required less breath this morning than last night. Probably my efforts last night to push more air across the embouchure hole to get to the high notes per my whistle experience, until my head felt like it was going to split open.

DRAGON AND PHOENIX WITH DIZI FINGERING B+0.50 C# D# E F# A B+050


LANTIAN (WHITE/GREEN JADE) WITH DIZI FINGERING D E F F# G# A# C

[Mark]

yeah, that looks like a dizi scale alright.

I play around with one once in a while for fun.

My suggestion to you would be to run scales and get your embouchure
stablized, then use them for improv around the house.

Then you should grab a simple flute tuned to D and get ready for the next session.

mark