I agree with piccolo1991 here. I am also a teacher and want my students to be as serious as possible about playing. After all, that is why they pay me. I think it would be very reckless of me to tell my students "it's ok if you don't use the metronome because it annoys you" or "maybe you should find a substitute". In truth, a student who does not adjust to it will often have timing issues that may hinder his/her performance in his/her chosen career. In other words, I treat all students as if they intend to become professionals and will equip them in every way that I possibly can for future success.
Playing for self enjoyment is wonderful! I admire those players a great deal. However, a student who is serious and is coming here for advice needs to know the truth, even if it is somewhat cold. A metronome is annoying, I think we all somewhat agree with that. If a player is serious enough, he/she must overcome that. Making excuses has never created great musicians. That is how I see it.
As for playing with tracs, I use this sometimes in my studio with young students to get them used to playing with an accompaniment. The biggest issue I see with this is that you cannot depend on the tracs to line up with what you are playing, and sometimes have to compromise the music to fit the trac. That can be a hindrance if you are trying to learn something well.
Using a Metronome
Moderators: Classitar, pied_piper, Phineas
Metronome and Tracks
My keyboard isn't a track. With the setting I described, its a metronome with two drums as the up-down beat sounds, a relatively expensive "metronome" at that.
My tracks, which I haven't used for a while, are recorded on a ukulele in either 3/4 or 4/4 time for Irish traditional music that is in that time. If a track is a bit off, it's still better than ignoring timing altogether as a beginner. (Not everyone is going to spend dollars on a metronome, and a computer can record a simple timing track and convert it to MP3 fairly easily using "Audacity", a free download. I say this not for those bound for Carnegie Hall, but rather, the local pub or friend's house. You know, the one that may be on the way to Carnegie Hall.
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Those nice and free "homemade" backtracks, with their relatively good, if not electronically perfect, time also convinced me sometime ago that my whistle timing needed improvement. (It's not that hard to keep good time strumming simple chords on a ukulele in either 3/4 or 4/4 time. It's as good as tapping your foot, perhaps even a little better.) The back tracks give you a sense of playing along with another person, one who won't complain if you mess up and have to start again. I like them if the timing is good for that reason. You can easily wander off into the hinter lands if all you ever do is play alone with no timing reference and without an instructor, and thus with no real timing reference. (I know. I do it all the time, but then I've never been much for any sort of timing reference, and normally just try to reproduce the sound of the tune that someone else has played using sheet music to help my memory.)
I am curious about the use of a metronome based on a statement someone made long ago. (I ask this because playing bar to bar is the closest I've come to using some timing reference, and it was easy to get a little lost in between the bars.) I'd complained that I was having trouble determining if I was playing in the right "bar" and that using a back track with two chords, each used for individual bar timing counts, was a help in that regard. They'd said they don't really use their metronome in that manner.
If I interpret what they're saying correctly, and this is only a guess, they're claiming to play to some extent between the ticks. For example, a quarter note followed by an eighth note would leave you "between the ticks" with 60 bpm. You may never be back in synch. with the ticks (although this is probably unlikely). Is this how metronome's are usually used - with and "between the ticks" rather than bar to bar? Hope I've expressed the question with sufficient clarity. Thanks for any insight here!
My tracks, which I haven't used for a while, are recorded on a ukulele in either 3/4 or 4/4 time for Irish traditional music that is in that time. If a track is a bit off, it's still better than ignoring timing altogether as a beginner. (Not everyone is going to spend dollars on a metronome, and a computer can record a simple timing track and convert it to MP3 fairly easily using "Audacity", a free download. I say this not for those bound for Carnegie Hall, but rather, the local pub or friend's house. You know, the one that may be on the way to Carnegie Hall.
) Those nice and free "homemade" backtracks, with their relatively good, if not electronically perfect, time also convinced me sometime ago that my whistle timing needed improvement. (It's not that hard to keep good time strumming simple chords on a ukulele in either 3/4 or 4/4 time. It's as good as tapping your foot, perhaps even a little better.) The back tracks give you a sense of playing along with another person, one who won't complain if you mess up and have to start again. I like them if the timing is good for that reason. You can easily wander off into the hinter lands if all you ever do is play alone with no timing reference and without an instructor, and thus with no real timing reference. (I know. I do it all the time, but then I've never been much for any sort of timing reference, and normally just try to reproduce the sound of the tune that someone else has played using sheet music to help my memory.)
I am curious about the use of a metronome based on a statement someone made long ago. (I ask this because playing bar to bar is the closest I've come to using some timing reference, and it was easy to get a little lost in between the bars.) I'd complained that I was having trouble determining if I was playing in the right "bar" and that using a back track with two chords, each used for individual bar timing counts, was a help in that regard. They'd said they don't really use their metronome in that manner.
If I interpret what they're saying correctly, and this is only a guess, they're claiming to play to some extent between the ticks. For example, a quarter note followed by an eighth note would leave you "between the ticks" with 60 bpm. You may never be back in synch. with the ticks (although this is probably unlikely). Is this how metronome's are usually used - with and "between the ticks" rather than bar to bar? Hope I've expressed the question with sufficient clarity. Thanks for any insight here!
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piccolo1991
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:12 pm
- Location: Atlanta
Jaded, I am not quite sure that I understand what you are asking...but when playing 'with' a metronome, you will not always be playing on the beat (or tic) with it. Say, you are playing in 4/4 or 3/4, or 2/4 time...you would only play with every click if you were playing quarter notes. So, if you had eighth notes, dotted quarter, half...etc...you would not be playing with every beat. (Again, I don't know if this was what you were asking...I am sorry if this is totally off track)
So, the idea is that you time things properly...playing eighths exactly in half beats...or playing half notes for exactly two beats...etc.
You don't always play with the beat...sometimes you play around it, but it is always there (at least in classical music). I recently transcribed a Hindu song for one of my students and had a great deal of trouble with it because they are very free with their time.
Please ask more if I haven't answered correctly. I still believe what I said about metronomes...although that does depend on the fact that I am classically trained. I have had to throw it out in very modern music...but in general, it is a necessary evil.
So, the idea is that you time things properly...playing eighths exactly in half beats...or playing half notes for exactly two beats...etc.
You don't always play with the beat...sometimes you play around it, but it is always there (at least in classical music). I recently transcribed a Hindu song for one of my students and had a great deal of trouble with it because they are very free with their time.
Please ask more if I haven't answered correctly. I still believe what I said about metronomes...although that does depend on the fact that I am classically trained. I have had to throw it out in very modern music...but in general, it is a necessary evil.
Clarity
I understand and agree with what you are saying.
My question focuses on the fact that when I try to use a timing reference (as in my past use of a four strum using two different chords - meaning that for 6/8 time, common in Irish traditional music, I might strum the C chord six times then then G chord six times then repeat the sequence) I find myself struggling a bit to correlate the timing reference tone (or strum) with the notes. I wind up simply trying to play the note sequences in between the bars in some reasonable timing.
I suppose you might say that my efforts lead to something that approximates bar to bar accuracy in terms of where I am in the music. I was given the impression that this approach isn't correct. Trying to count beats until one has accumulated enough time among the notes one has played within a bar to be back on the beat seems rather complicated when one is trying to do so many other things when playing.
I am attempting to identify the mindset one must have when one is using a metronome in terms of identifying timing using the beats from the tone generator (or mechanical device), particularly if one winds up playing notes that leave one often "between the beats". I always saw it as disaster when I was using the ukulele strums, because I would sometimes try to record using them as a rhythmic backtrack, and missing a beat ruined the recording.
What is the mindset one uses when one employs a metronome? If you make a mistake, do you just keep playing the next note starting on the next whole beat, even if you wouldn't normally be on the beat if you had played it correctly? Does this affect later practice if you have to go back into playing that segment between the beats?
Odd questions, but understanding how people who do well with music use the tools and perceive their practice may help me to approach my amateur and generally beginner efforts with less trepidation and sense that I may be doing things entirely inappropriately. Not knowing the mindset and approach behind the use of the metronome among those who use it effectively seems to me to handicap my efforts to employ a timing reference.
I realize that superficially the metronome seems like a very straightforward tool, but then you actually have to use it while doing something complicated, like playing a musical instrument while reading sheet music, meaning your eyes are one place, your hands are another, and your ears must be somewhere else. Coming to grips with how other approach such complexity (and any resulting errors in timing while playing with a metronome) might help me to perceive the metronome less negatively in terms of its impact on my concentration. There are some obvious solutions.
1. Just keep playing with the next beat after making a mistake.
2. Start over to insure you are in the right place relative to being on or between the beats with the notes.
3. Don't attempt to play between the bars, just stay focused on the tones and the note you are playing. (Can you do this and not look ahead at all???)
4. Get a good idea of how the music should sound, and just try to keep up between the bars (as I've done in the past).
Thanks!
My question focuses on the fact that when I try to use a timing reference (as in my past use of a four strum using two different chords - meaning that for 6/8 time, common in Irish traditional music, I might strum the C chord six times then then G chord six times then repeat the sequence) I find myself struggling a bit to correlate the timing reference tone (or strum) with the notes. I wind up simply trying to play the note sequences in between the bars in some reasonable timing.
I suppose you might say that my efforts lead to something that approximates bar to bar accuracy in terms of where I am in the music. I was given the impression that this approach isn't correct. Trying to count beats until one has accumulated enough time among the notes one has played within a bar to be back on the beat seems rather complicated when one is trying to do so many other things when playing.
I am attempting to identify the mindset one must have when one is using a metronome in terms of identifying timing using the beats from the tone generator (or mechanical device), particularly if one winds up playing notes that leave one often "between the beats". I always saw it as disaster when I was using the ukulele strums, because I would sometimes try to record using them as a rhythmic backtrack, and missing a beat ruined the recording.
What is the mindset one uses when one employs a metronome? If you make a mistake, do you just keep playing the next note starting on the next whole beat, even if you wouldn't normally be on the beat if you had played it correctly? Does this affect later practice if you have to go back into playing that segment between the beats?
Odd questions, but understanding how people who do well with music use the tools and perceive their practice may help me to approach my amateur and generally beginner efforts with less trepidation and sense that I may be doing things entirely inappropriately. Not knowing the mindset and approach behind the use of the metronome among those who use it effectively seems to me to handicap my efforts to employ a timing reference.
I realize that superficially the metronome seems like a very straightforward tool, but then you actually have to use it while doing something complicated, like playing a musical instrument while reading sheet music, meaning your eyes are one place, your hands are another, and your ears must be somewhere else. Coming to grips with how other approach such complexity (and any resulting errors in timing while playing with a metronome) might help me to perceive the metronome less negatively in terms of its impact on my concentration. There are some obvious solutions.
1. Just keep playing with the next beat after making a mistake.
2. Start over to insure you are in the right place relative to being on or between the beats with the notes.
3. Don't attempt to play between the bars, just stay focused on the tones and the note you are playing. (Can you do this and not look ahead at all???)
4. Get a good idea of how the music should sound, and just try to keep up between the bars (as I've done in the past).
Thanks!
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piccolo1991
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:12 pm
- Location: Atlanta
My question focuses on the fact that when I try to use a timing reference (as in my past use of a four strum using two different chords - meaning that for 6/8 time, common in Irish traditional music, I might strum the C chord six times then then G chord six times then repeat the sequence)
Again, if I am understaning this correctly in writing (music is hard to write about), some metronomes come with subdivision features...for instance, you are playing an irish piece (as my husband and I have been learning some flute and guitar irish music) and they place a tempo at dotted quarter note=60 and you are in 6/8 time. You have some options:
1. If you have a metronome that plays subdivisions, place the tempo at 60 and turn on the triplet function. That will then pulse the 3 beats 'in between'. Since you will have two main pulses in each 6/8 measure...that will add up to you 6 strums!
2. I you do not have a metronome that subdivides...but you still want the smaller, strumming, pulses...you can take the dotted quarter tempo (60 for my example) and multiply it by 3...60*3=180. Then you can put your metronome on 180 and now you have your eighth note, strumming, pulse of 6 per measure.
3. If you feel comfortable enough, you can just subdivide the pulse in your head...I tell my students to thing 'blue-ber-ry' or 'tri-p-let'. So that the 'blue' of each falls on the down beat with the metronome.
Ok, how do you get used to a metronome. If you are messing up enough that you cannot keep up with it, slow it down. You do not have to 'learn' a piece of music at the tempo suggested. Now, honestly, I usually play thru the piece one or two times before adding the metronome. I admit to myself that those times are only for figuring out notes and basic rhythms...this way I can pause and go back if necessary without the annoyance of the metronome. But then I figure out a happy learning tempo and start there. As that gets better with the metronome I will click it up a notch and work there...so on and so on. On difficult pieces (a piece that you find challenging, no matter what level you are you should have some of these) this process will take a while...but is very rewarding in the end!
Doh!
Here I am, telling myself that I should forget about 4/4 and 3/4 time and think only in 8/8 and 6/8 time to make it easier to keep time, and I miss the obvious extension of that thinking to a metronome. (I'd substituted counting in my head for foot tapping, because my lower leg would get tired after a while, making me decide to count silently in eighth notes.)
I think I can still use the bluegrass style 90 option on my keyboard as my metronome, and just recognize that if I set the tempo at 120 bpm, and use each tick as a count for 6/8 or 8/8 time, I'm actually at 60 bpm.
Thanks for refocusing my thinking!
I think I can still use the bluegrass style 90 option on my keyboard as my metronome, and just recognize that if I set the tempo at 120 bpm, and use each tick as a count for 6/8 or 8/8 time, I'm actually at 60 bpm.
Thanks for refocusing my thinking!
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piccolo1991
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:12 pm
- Location: Atlanta
More than you know...
The slow metronome setting (actually, bluegrass style rhythm section on my keyboard (style 90 on an el cheapo Yamaha) providing a "whump- chhh-whump- chhhh" effect) is doing more than just improving my timing. Its permitting me to pay more attention to reading the sheet music, because the slow BPM setting - roughly 60 BPM - gives me more time to pay attention to the basics. The combination of reading sheet music and paying attention to the metronome is forcing me to focus more. My mind wanders less while I'm playing, and even my sheet music reading skills are improved as an unexpected result.
This attention to playing notes over protracted time frames due to a slow "metronome" bpm setting is also forcing me to figure out where to attach my lower lip/chin to the outside of the PVC flute to permit me to play both base and second register notes without having to shift positions (just embouchure) while playing at speed. All in all, the slow metronome via my keyboard rhythm section isn't proving distracting at all, and I can get a lot of volume from the keyboard if I need it (or just use earbuds).
(I've moved it up to 120 bpm now, and still no problem with the keyboard "metronome" as a distraction. The "whump-chh" is a great help in terms of timing. I may record This "whump-chh" at a couple of different speeds and put it on my MP3 player as a metronome substitute.)
This attention to playing notes over protracted time frames due to a slow "metronome" bpm setting is also forcing me to figure out where to attach my lower lip/chin to the outside of the PVC flute to permit me to play both base and second register notes without having to shift positions (just embouchure) while playing at speed. All in all, the slow metronome via my keyboard rhythm section isn't proving distracting at all, and I can get a lot of volume from the keyboard if I need it (or just use earbuds).
(I've moved it up to 120 bpm now, and still no problem with the keyboard "metronome" as a distraction. The "whump-chh" is a great help in terms of timing. I may record This "whump-chh" at a couple of different speeds and put it on my MP3 player as a metronome substitute.)
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concertpianist16
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:47 pm
- Location: Arlington, Washington
This is not an hard concept to grasp. Wait! I'm not putting you down. I play 11 instruments over 8 years and still had no grasp of the metronome until a couple months ago. Here's how my piano teacher did it.
1. Start the song really slow. (My song was in 3/4 time and Performance Tempo was 80 BPM but she had me practicing at 60 BPM.)
2. Find out what works for you. (Should you practice a line at a time, or a measure at a time)
3. Slowly work up to preformance tempo.
Don't worry if it takes a while for you to get past step one. Trust me it's a lot of work. I worked on it for probably 8 weeks before I had a basic grasp of the metronome. It's very rewarding when you can play with the metronome so keep working at it.
1. Start the song really slow. (My song was in 3/4 time and Performance Tempo was 80 BPM but she had me practicing at 60 BPM.)
2. Find out what works for you. (Should you practice a line at a time, or a measure at a time)
3. Slowly work up to preformance tempo.
Don't worry if it takes a while for you to get past step one. Trust me it's a lot of work. I worked on it for probably 8 weeks before I had a basic grasp of the metronome. It's very rewarding when you can play with the metronome so keep working at it.
I play:
Piano
Organ
Clarinet
Flute
Recorder
Penny Whistle
Harmonica
Jaw Harp
Cello
Violin
Guitar
Mandolin
Ukulele
Piano
Organ
Clarinet
Flute
Recorder
Penny Whistle
Harmonica
Jaw Harp
Cello
Violin
Guitar
Mandolin
Ukulele