Repadding of Yamaha 200, 300 series flute

[flutego12]

Agree with Mirwa. Many/most flute techs use very thin feeler material to check for equal seating 360° around the pad. This feeler material can be as thin as .001" or even .0005" if they are really particular. To put this into perspective, .0005 is less than the thickness of most human hairs.

After selecting a pad of the appropriate diameter and thickness, the procedure to install and seat each pad properly goes something like this:
1 Install pad in key cup and place light mark at key arm to indicate radial orientation
2 Mount key on flute body
3 close key and use feeler to inspect for places where pad contact with tone hole is heavy or light and mark the light spots
4 remove key from flute
5 remove pad from key cup
6 add or remove shims to adjust for heavy or light spots - some techs use partial shims for small areas
7 REPEAT above until the pad touches equally all around the tone hole.
8 REPEAT above for each pad on the flute...

There is MORE to the process than what I have described above, but that should give you an idea of the precision work required to repad a flute. This also does not describe the process required to regulate the interaction of various keys that must work together or close in unison with no lost motion.

This is really interesting. So the BITs will use the thicker feelers whilst the PFTs use the .0005"! for the even and simultaneous seal? I know that is an over generalisation. Would it be fair to say that the average BIT servicing requires the annual trip whilst PFT because of the skill level and price means your flute plays longer in between service? Ok self correcting - BIT flutes requires annual trip because of school band wear and tear and poorer handling skills of younger kids.

What makes a pad seal securely for longer assuming it's a reasonable factory yamaha where QA is good-ish.

[pied_piper]

This is really interesting. So the BITs will use the thicker feelers whilst the PFTs use the .0005"! for the even and simultaneous seal? I know that is an over generalisation. Would it be fair to say that the average BIT servicing requires the annual trip whilst PFT because of the skill level and price means your flute plays longer in between service? Ok self correcting - BIT flutes requires annual trip because of school band wear and tear and poorer handling skills of younger kids.

What makes a pad seal securely for longer assuming it's a reasonable factory yamaha where QA is good-ish.

Yes, that is an over generalization. Some techs do all instruments. Some do just brasswinds, some just woodwinds, and others specialize in one instrument. That, in and of itself, is not the determining factor. Dedication to doing the best possible quality job is not necessarily limited to a flute specialist only. The choice of feeler thickness is not determined by how a tech classifies him/herself. However, the more a tech performs repairs on a specific instrument, the better they become (again a generalization). Some general repair techs do superb work on flutes and some flute specialists do not... Generally speaking though, the good ones stay in business and have a good reputation. Hopefully, for the poorer ones, their reputation will get around and not stick around.

Frequency of service often depends more upon the care the player takes with their flute and how many hours a week they play it. Just like oil changes for automobiles are recommended every 3,000 to 5,000 miles, flutes should be serviced on a schedule based upon how many notes you play a week. Not really, but there is a relationship. More use = more frequent service. Less care (not swabbing, not storing the flute in it's case, etc) = more frequent service. How hard the player squeezes the keys can also be a factor. A light touch on the keys is better for the pads and also better for a speedy technique. If the player repeatedly grasps the keys while assembling the flute, it can contribute to keys going out of alignment or in the extreme, bent keys.

Generally, firmer pads will retain their performance over a longer period of time. Softer pads, while easier for the tech to initially get them sealing well, will compress some over time which can cause various adjustments to go out or result in small leaks. The firmer pads take more work (better prep, level tone holes, more shim work) to get them to seal, but they will tend to hold the seal longer because they don't tend to compress (as much)...

[mirwa]

The reply by pied on how to do the replacement of the pad is pretty close to how it should be done.

My feeler gauge for checking for leaks is 0.0005" thick, or for us metric minded people 0.0012 of a mm ( so thats 1/100th of a mm in thickness), the width of the feeler gauge is 2.5mm, for imperial people about 1/10 of an inch

I do not like partial shims, partial shims may raise a section of the pad, but as the pad settles from tension or from being played, the sides of the pad collapse around the partial shim, this means later two leaks instead of one. The two leak equate to a smaller leak than the original one big leak, but ts still now two leaks.

In essence thats not too bad if the partial shim is approx 0.0005" thick as the felt and skin will accompany this. Please note I dont like partial shims, but I do use them, the key is to get the thickness of the partial to a bare minimum

My process is fit the key and full shims until perfect contact on 4 sides, 90 degrees apart, from this I then if required partial shim up to 0.0005" to accomadate discrepancsy's for any areas between these four points if I need to use a partial of 0.001 thou or greater, then I have a crap pad / an unlevel tone hole, or loose keywork.

So I fix the underlying problem and start again.

I may remove and refit a singular key 10-30 times to get it right.

I or I should say we, dont just repair flutes, Im a musical instrument repairer, so this means I repair from guitars to flutes to saxes to trumpets to drums and pianos. Its mechanics straight and simple, however you do need to be able to play whatever instrument you repair for responsiveness and intonation.

[jim22]

I use a length of cassette tape glued to a length of lightweight wooden skewer as a feeler. It seems to be about the right thickness and width. I make up a half dozen of these and replace them when the tape gets tired.

I would very much appreciate a brief description of techniques to level toneholes. My current approach is a bit crude. I have a mandrel with an oval cut machined out. I put the flute on the mandrel with the high area over the cutout and try to tap the tonehole down using a small hammer and a flat piece of lexan. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it creates a worse situation. I'm referring to plated flutes with rolled toneholes. I'm very much opposed to filing them. I am not ready to attempt this on a solid silver body. Sorry if this is a bit off topic. Also, I am aware this is a quite advanced technique which has the potential to scrap an instrument.

I also have another mandrel that takes various balls designed to lift low areas of toneholes. This hasn't exactly been magical for me either, but I may just need some more experience with it.

[flutego12]

Yes, that is an over generalization. Some techs do all instruments. Some do just brasswinds, some just woodwinds, and others specialize in one instrument. That, in and of itself, is not the determining factor. Dedication to doing the best possible quality job is not necessarily limited to a flute specialist only. The choice of feeler thickness is not determined by how a tech classifies him/herself. However, the more a tech performs repairs on a specific instrument, the better they become (again a generalization). Some general repair techs do superb work on flutes and some flute specialists do not... Generally speaking though, the good ones stay in business and have a good reputation. Hopefully, for the poorer ones, their reputation will get around and not stick around.
That was a poor choice of words and phrasing on my part. Totally on same page with you on this. Of course.

Frequency of service often depends more upon the care the player takes with their flute and how many hours a week they play it. Just like oil changes for automobiles are recommended every 3,000 to 5,000 miles, flutes should be serviced on a schedule based upon how many notes you play a week. Not really, but there is a relationship. More use = more frequent service. Less care (not swabbing, not storing the flute in it's case, etc) = more frequent service. How hard the player squeezes the keys can also be a factor. A light touch on the keys is better for the pads and also better for a speedy technique. If the player repeatedly grasps the keys while assembling the flute, it can contribute to keys going out of alignment or in the extreme, bent keys.Thanks

Generally, firmer pads will retain their performance over a longer period of time. Softer pads, while easier for the tech to initially get them sealing well, will compress some over time which can cause various adjustments to go out or result in small leaks. The firmer pads take more work (better prep, level tone holes, more shim work) to get them to seal, but they will tend to hold the seal longer because they don't tend to compress (as much)...

Ahh! That would be the woven versus the pressed felt. I wonder how many years differential on average does a player get out of them - yes so many factors...

[flutego12]

The reply by pied on how to do the replacement of the pad is pretty close to how it should be done.

My feeler gauge for checking for leaks is 0.0005" thick, or for us metric minded people 0.0012 of a mm ( so thats 1/100th of a mm in thickness), the width of the feeler gauge is 2.5mm, for imperial people about 1/10 of an inchI think our gauge don't go to as many decimals, is yours tre expensive?

I do not like partial shims, partial shims may raise a section of the pad, but as the pad settles from tension or from being played, the sides of the pad collapse around the partial shim, this means later two leaks instead of one. The two leak equate to a smaller leak than the original one big leak, but ts still now two leaks. thanks for that, to avoid where shim is greater than 0.0005" but how sneaky whoever does it and then create two future problems

In essence thats not too bad if the partial shim is approx 0.0005" thick as the felt and skin will accompany this. Please note I dont like partial shims, but I do use them, the key is to get the thickness of the partial to a bare minimum gd to know

My process is fit the key and full shims until perfect contact on 4 sides, 90 degrees apart, from this I then if required partial shim up to 0.0005" to accomadate discrepancsy's for any areas between these four points if I need to use a partial of 0.001 thou or greater, then I have a crap pad / an unlevel tone hole, or loose keywork. gobbledygook to me! rereading and visualising. When you say you fit the key what exactly do you mean, just the one? to the immediate part and presumably in sequence of refitting everything back on? So the next one after the last one. ...

So I fix the underlying problem and start again.

I may remove and refit a singular key 10-30 times to get it right.omg

I or I should say we, dont just repair flutes, Im a musical instrument repairer, so this means I repair from guitars to flutes to saxes to trumpets to drums and pianos. Its mechanics straight and simple, however you do need to be able to play whatever instrument you repair for responsiveness and intonation.

naturally intonation is so core. that's great one gets to do what one loves.

[flutego12]

thanks guys, learning heaps here, one big puzzle with the frame up and the pixels slowly put in place, many many still missing, to be encountered along the journey of experience as you would say, and rightly so.... after all that, perhaps I should just send my flute to the pro, haha.

we shall see.

[mirwa]

I would very much appreciate a brief description of techniques to level toneholes. My current approach is a bit crude. I have a mandrel with an oval cut machined out. I put the flute on the mandrel with the high area over the cutout and try to tap the tonehole down using a small hammer and a flat piece of lexan. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it creates a worse situation. I'm referring to plated flutes with rolled toneholes. I'm very much opposed to filing them. I am not ready to attempt this on a solid silver body. Sorry if this is a bit off topic. Also, I am aware this is a quite advanced technique which has the potential to scrap an instrument.

The fact you recognise it as an advanced skill is good to see before you attempt to try it. Just becuase I may write down the process does mean you will be successful in its application.

It takes practice practice and practice.

To level a tone hole you must first identify whether you are going to tap the low sections up using a small curved drift on the underside of the rolled tone hole edge or tap the raised surface down, if Im tapping down, I protect the body by supporting it with a solid mandrel internally and I protect the tone hole with a piece of ridgid plastic, I locally tap with a hammer onto the plastic the areas that need lowering. Carry this process out untill a piece of your shim cannot slip through any position between the tone hole and a flat circular disc on the surface.

If you need to recut the tone hole, then a diamond coated disc is my preference, black mark the tone hole and cut until the black is evenly removed, using external chamfering tools, fit a radius back to the outside, with internal chamfering tools fit a radius to the inside.

If you go to far, then you need to make a new rolled tone hole edge and cut the original tone hole off, then soft solder your freshly machined edge onto the tone hole and restart the levelling process.

""Flute are the easiest instrument to repair"", sorry I see that statement way too many times, and its not true, they are the hardest instruments to do right.

I also have another mandrel that takes various balls designed to lift low areas of toneholes. This hasn't exactly been magical for me either, but I may just need some more experience with it.

That would be the JL Smith bar, another beautifully designed tool, but really not many advantages gained from its use over conventional dent tools

[jim22]

[quote="mirwa"]

To level a tone hole you must first identify whether you are going to tap the low sections up using a small curved drift on the underside of the rolled tone hole edge or tap the raised surface down, if Im tapping down, I protect the body by supporting it with a solid mandrel internally and I protect the tone hole with a piece of ridgid plastic, I locally tap with a hammer onto the plastic the areas that need lowering. Carry this process out untill a piece of your shim cannot slip through any position between the tone hole and a flat circular disc on the surface.

Oops, I messed up the quote... anyway, so it sounds like the intent is to increase or decrease the amount of roll in the tonehole to raise or lower a section of it. This is not what I had been trying to achieve. I had been attempting to raise or lower the body at the base of the tonehole. I realize now that would not be very effective and/or would certainly stress and warp things. I will reconsider. Thanks very much.

[flutego12]

[mirwa]

it sounds like the intent is to increase or decrease the amount of roll in the tonehole to raise or lower a section of it.

That is correct. If you are to raise or lower the walls (and they were not damaged to start with) then you are in effect denting the instrument, you are modifying the inner cylindrical tube which is not the ideal. The ideal is to work with the chimney section and or the edge of the roll.

[Spencer]

there are 2 schools of thought.

1 a high quality, high density pad like Prestini will give you an accurate reading- they can be more difficult to seat on account of the low yield and rigidity but the finish is far more accurate and the action is improved.

2 a softer (cheaper) pad - i can't name an example. will be easier to seat as the relatively high yield of the felt forms a seal around the tone hole and creates a deep foot groove. the drawback is,however, that a cheaper pad can sometimes be less consistent and have varience in the thickness making for potential difficulties in seating....

i would always go with prestini pads. the end justifies the means!