REPAIR SOS :In such a pickle - I finally bought a lemon ..

[flutego12]

...at $235. Just bought, by comparison, to others:

> the newest flute - just 4yrs old (two owners) being 2009 issue
> the most expensive - being $235
> AND THE LEAST PLAYABLE
>WITH THE MOST REPAIRS NEEDED.

I have the option of returning it, but, may mean I will be $30 out of pocket for shipping both ways. BAH!

Symptoms & Diagnosis
==============
1) Footjoint malaise: Rod was seized in "the works" and a nightmare to remove, as it's not an oil issue, I suspected and confirmed that something is bent. Q was what?
Looks like it may be the top end of the rod as it slips through the 3 dismantled key holes quite easily up till a point. BUT ALSO FOUND THAT
the Ckey mechanism may be a little twisted (RODS moving and fixed NOT paralel when inserted). The D#, C# key rod casing (short jutty end) look bent as well. What luck!
The FJ ROD met with its BIGGEST RESISTANCE at the first point of entry. Pulled it out for a retry just rod and Ckey mech true enough something is bent!Still my biggest challenge, i think the entire footjoint needs looking at, along entire lenght of fj is a row of scratches that look like it's been booted or stepped on. short parallel diagonal stokes of grey

Not sure what to use to rectify this. Bummer. Need an anvil and mallet I imagine. Is this right? What tools to straighten rods and key housings? What to use as "plumbline"/ true reference?

2) Middle joint: The entire RH mechanism keys are just air, almost silent. this is now fixed, I've regulated the paired keys using the 3 accessible adjt screws. F & E keys are suspect - achieving only a partial seal fixed now. For a short while, the problem became stuffy G/G# keys, they played with a sudden shift in (higher) resistance and yield a muted tone (appear to seal but); these two notes split in the high registers - thankfully, this is also fixed now0 . what a miracle! Which forces me to look at pad leaks! The entire flute now plays perfectly apart from F#note(!) - ... it has fallen silent! All ears for possible reasons. Update per 6:25AEST, F# note has been restored and is singing again by a simple "reseating" of the F key pad (leak removed)

Q How does one straighten a key rod housing that is slightly bent - the rod seizes in it?
Keys and pins and string catches are in the way, hence one cannot place it flat on an anvil and straighten it with hammer blows.
Perhaps it is easier to just buy the correct FJ spare part. That way it's a quality job.

[JButky]

First off, Straighten the steel to make sure that it is true. This is done the traditional way by spinning it and drawing it out through a hole in the wood of your mallet handle. If you are unfamiliar with this procedure, ask!

Second, make sure the the steel then fits each key properly. Key work should slide along the length of the steel and rotate perfectly free.

Third, sight the steel as it passes through the posts. You may with close inspection see which way a post is tipped and tap it back into place. (ALWAYS keep a body mandrel in the bore while doing this.)

Use small adjustments, not large. This is delicate work and may take a while. There are MANY techniques for EACH of these three stages.

If you have a drill or a drill press, chuck the steel and observe it while spinning, You can often see where the wobble is. CAUTION: ALWAYS support the far end of the steel when spinning to prevent more damage and personal injury!!!!

Start there and tell us what it looks like.

[flutego12]

Also referring to the key in photo, when I force the rod in through the appropriate holes, you will see two supposed perfectly parallel rods (one fixed one movable) - there is a slight twist there about 0.5mm off. Could be the mounts, if I look at it sideways, ...? can't put my finger on it.

[flutego12]

First off, Straighten the steel to make sure that it is true. This is done the traditional way by spinning it and drawing it out through a hole in the wood of your mallet handle. If you are unfamiliar with this procedure, ask! Thank you Joe, and yes I'm unfamiliar with this procedure. I have a lot of dusty legacy mallets/ hammers at home but having two cmg fr JLS one rawhide small the other B hammer. Is the small mallet the one to go with?

Second, make sure the the steel then fits each key properly. Key work should slide along the length of the steel and rotate perfectly free.I had done this earlier and the top end of the rod .75" or so siezes in the key

Third, sight the steel as it passes through the posts. You may with close inspection see which way a post is tipped and tap it back into place. (ALWAYS keep a body mandrel in the bore while doing this.) Body mandrel here would be... the rod? If not where do I buy one?

Use small adjustments, not large. This is delicate work and may take a while. There are MANY techniques for EACH of these three stages.

If you have a drill or a drill press, chuck the steel and observe it while spinning, You can often see where the wobble is. CAUTION: ALWAYS support the far end of the steel when spinning to prevent more damage and personal injury!!!!
Photos attached - a little difficult making out the bend. But fitting the rod through is a whole other story. The moutns may be twisted minutely, I've tried bending it back one dimension but there is another dimension that looks sus, I just didn't want to touch it yet.
Start there and tell us what it looks like.

OK

[flutego12]

Can clicky keys be saved?

I noticed a 10yo flute had one or two keys that come up with a click.
Today, the 4yo flute appear to also have a few of those.

Is there redemption for these poor keys?

[pied_piper]

First off, Straighten the steel to make sure that it is true. This is done the traditional way by spinning it and drawing it out through a hole in the wood of your mallet handle. If you are unfamiliar with this procedure, ask! Thank you Joe, and yes I'm unfamiliar with this procedure. I have a lot of dusty legacy mallets/ hammers at home but having two cmg fr JLS one rawhide small the other B hammer. Is the small mallet the one to go with?

The procedure that Joe is describing is referring to just the hardwood handle. The head part does not matter. See this video for a "How to": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPTAIAF5EQ The example shows a sax steel, but the procedure is exactly the same for any woodwind instrument.

Second, make sure the the steel then fits each key properly. Key work should slide along the length of the steel and rotate perfectly free.I had done this earlier and the top end of the rod .75" or so siezes in the key

Sounds like the steel is slightly bent. Straighten it as described by Joe and shown in the video above.

Third, sight the steel as it passes through the posts. You may with close inspection see which way a post is tipped and tap it back into place. (ALWAYS keep a body mandrel in the bore while doing this.) Body mandrel here would be... the rod? If not where do I buy one?

Joe's telling you to place a body mandrel INSIDE the footjoint BODY. If you don't, then while straightening a post, the bore of the footjoint could become distorted.

Use small adjustments, not large. This is delicate work and may take a while. There are MANY techniques for EACH of these three stages.

If you have a drill or a drill press, chuck the steel and observe it while spinning, You can often see where the wobble is. CAUTION: ALWAYS support the far end of the steel when spinning to prevent more damage and personal injury!!!!
Photos attached - a little difficult making out the bend. But fitting the rod through is a whole other story. The moutns may be twisted minutely, I've tried bending it back one dimension but there is another dimension that looks sus, I just didn't want to touch it yet.
Start there and tell us what it looks like.

OK

It's difficult to tell from photo 1, but it "appears" that the second (and maybe the third) post from the north end may be out of alignment - leaning to the right. (Not sure though, it could just be a camera lens distortion giving that appearance.) If the posts are out of line, it can cause the steel and/or keys to bind. In the second photo, is there a dent on the north end of the D# key cup? If so, maybe the footjoint was dropped or bumped into something. Of course, that could just be a reflection of light on the cup.

Can clicky keys be saved?

I noticed a 10yo flute had one or two keys that come up with a click.
Today, the 4yo flute appear to also have a few of those.

Is there redemption for these poor keys?

Key clicks can come from a variety of causes, but it should be possible to resolve them. You just need to find out WHAT is clicking...
Possible causes:
needs oiling
missing felt on kicker
missing cork/felt between connected keys
worn key shaft (more serious problem fixed by swedging the key shafts to tighten them and remove "slop"
a bent key or kicker contacting an adjacent key, kicker, or post

[mirwa]

Welcome to the field now of repair.

As of this point it can get extremely expensive quickly.

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts, very rarely does a flute come in for a service without needing some form of repair work.

I find even after I straighten a hinge tube or rod I like to run a sized reamer to ensure the bore is cylindrical in the hinge tube

To straighten posts, you must deal with any body issues first, raise any dents up, straighten and parts out, then you with persuasion move the post to its optimum position, again, once posts are all aligned, ream / bush / recess / swedge to get a nice fitting key prior to doing any pad work.

[JButky]

Bob, Thanks for that link, I was thinking I'd have to make a video. and BAM, there it was!

It is also possible the key tube is torqued from twisting making the steel bind in the key. You either need to "un bend" or twist it back.. This involves a lot of feel or you can just re ream the key. Again, this is assuming that the steel is straight and the posts line up first. Those yamaha foot keys do not like to be bent at all. Sometimes they are a bugger to get the steel through again without re reaming the key.

Again, as Steve said. More tools come into play, even if you make your own reamer which is inexpensive but does require some skill and practice.

[flutego12]

First off, Straighten the steel to make sure that it is true. This is done the traditional way by spinning it and drawing it out through a hole in the wood of your mallet handle. If you are unfamiliar with this procedure, ask! Thank you Joe, and yes I'm unfamiliar with this procedure. I have a lot of dusty legacy mallets/ hammers at home but having two cmg fr JLS one rawhide small the other B hammer. Is the small mallet the one to go with?

The procedure that Joe is describing is referring to just the hardwood handle. The head part does not matter. See this video for a "How to": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPTAIAF5EQ The example shows a sax steel, but the procedure is exactly the same for any woodwind instrument.

Second, make sure the the steel then fits each key properly. Key work should slide along the length of the steel and rotate perfectly free.I had done this earlier and the top end of the rod .75" or so siezes in the key

Sounds like the steel is slightly bent. Straighten it as described by Joe and shown in the video above.

Third, sight the steel as it passes through the posts. You may with close inspection see which way a post is tipped and tap it back into place. (ALWAYS keep a body mandrel in the bore while doing this.) Body mandrel here would be... the rod? If not where do I buy one?

Joe's telling you to place a body mandrel INSIDE the footjoint BODY. If you don't, then while straightening a post, the bore of the footjoint could become distorted.

Use small adjustments, not large. This is delicate work and may take a while. There are MANY techniques for EACH of these three stages.

If you have a drill or a drill press, chuck the steel and observe it while spinning, You can often see where the wobble is. CAUTION: ALWAYS support the far end of the steel when spinning to prevent more damage and personal injury!!!!
Photos attached - a little difficult making out the bend. But fitting the rod through is a whole other story. The moutns may be twisted minutely, I've tried bending it back one dimension but there is another dimension that looks sus, I just didn't want to touch it yet.
Start there and tell us what it looks like.

OK

It's difficult to tell from photo 1, but it "appears" that the second (and maybe the third) post from the north end may be out of alignment - leaning to the right. (Not sure though, it could just be a camera lens distortion giving that appearance.) If the posts are out of line, it can cause the steel and/or keys to bind. In the second photo, is there a dent on the north end of the D# key cup? If so, maybe the footjoint was dropped or bumped into something. Of course, that could just be a reflection of light on the cup.

Can clicky keys be saved?

I noticed a 10yo flute had one or two keys that come up with a click.
Today, the 4yo flute appear to also have a few of those.

Is there redemption for these poor keys?

Key clicks can come from a variety of causes, but it should be possible to resolve them. You just need to find out WHAT is clicking...
Possible causes:
needs oiling
missing felt on kicker
missing cork/felt between connected keys
worn key shaft (more serious problem fixed by swedging the key shafts to tighten them and remove "slop"
a bent key or kicker contacting an adjacent key, kicker, or post

Hi Bob! Thanks fr the video. You Tube is much easier for me as I cannot access some of the other proprietary software videos. Gonna be a challenge but this layer of complexity makes life more interesting I guess. You will undoubtedly hear from me again as I holler (ask nicely) for help.

[flutego12]

Welcome to the field now of repair.

As of this point it can get extremely expensive quickly.

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts, very rarely does a flute come in for a service without needing some form of repair work.

I find even after I straighten a hinge tube or rod I like to run a sized reamer to ensure the bore is cylindrical in the hinge tube

To straighten posts, you must deal with any body issues first, raise any dents up, straighten and parts out, then you with persuasion move the post to its optimum position, again, once posts are all aligned, ream / bush / recess / swedge to get a nice fitting key prior to doing any pad work.

Hm. Looks like the factory has to close involuntarily until the proper tools and supplies arrive. In fact I better place my order tonight. Drats the little aussie falling so fast. JLS has become even more expensive.

Thank you, Steve. What is a hinge tube and how do you straighten it? Oh I geddit. It is the cyclindrical housing for the rod, right? And the sized reamer is like a mandrel to keep it round inside. And you would use Bob's video method to true the rod. But how do you straighten a hinge tube? I better look up reamer. Seen it but not sure what it's for.

[flutego12]

Bob, Thanks for that link, I was thinking I'd have to make a video. and BAM, there it was!

It is also possible the key tube is torqued from twisting making the steel bind in the key. You either need to "un bend" or twist it back.. This involves a lot of feel or you can just re ream the key. Again, this is assuming that the steel is straight and the posts line up first. Those yamaha foot keys do not like to be bent at all. Sometimes they are a bugger to get the steel through again without re reaming the key.

Again, as Steve said. More tools come into play, even if you make your own reamer which is inexpensive but does require some skill and practice.

Hello again Joe. What tools would you use to unbend? I tried with bare hands and it was awkward. (Swear) the twist is less now but I think the mounting piece look like it's not perpendicular to the flute. Bigger than Ben Hur. Thanks for the heads up that Yamaha footkeys do not like to be bent at all. Foot keys, which part is that?

[mirwa]

To unbend is a skill, pretty much any key can be straightened via manipulation with your hands, it takes practice, this applies to solid tubes or hinge tubes.

A reamer is like a drill, how ever it is for finer tolerances, a good repairer can make there own reamers as required, a D reamer is typical in this application, commercial reamers are available, these can be made as well, but require more sophisticated tooling like tool and cutter grinders.

[flutego12]

To unbend is a skill, pretty much any key can be straightened via manipulation with your hands, it takes practice, this applies to solid tubes or hinge tubes.

A reamer is like a drill, how ever it is for finer tolerances, a good repairer can make there own reamers as required, a D reamer is typical in this application, commercial reamers are available, these can be made as well, but require more sophisticated tooling like tool and cutter grinders.

Thanks, Steve. I should look into reamers on JLS, I should get size D? Waht about rawhide mallet, I chose the smallest is that alright? Haven't pressed the button yet. I have alot of tools in the garage and some with the nephews, just needs setting up. Will get around to it one day.

I bought the metal smith book, but didn't find it immediately helpful. For example burnishing or rolling don't get any more detail on technique apart from their definition.

[mirwa]

A D reamer is called this because of its profile shape, it's not a size.

I make my own reamers but they are 6 flute reamers, they are more complicated to make, but they pretty well last forever, most repairers will make a D reamer with the same rod they will eventually turn into a hinge rod

A rawhide hammer is handy, but not applicable for straightening keys and rods.

[flutego12]

Stranger than fiction MYSTERY: F# key falls silent after disassembly.
=============-----------------------------------

Following a visit to the flute assessor who concurred with me that the footjoint's mechanical misalignment needs remedy, I came home and proceeded to COA the middle joint (hvg done hj and fj yesterday). Before I disassembled the middle joint, everykey was playing fine (post adjustment) HOWEVER, after COA and reassembly, every key was fine EXCEPT F# key (RH pinky key before D#(. I can't put my finger on what the problem could be... so,... HELP!!!