REPAIR SOS :In such a pickle - I finally bought a lemon ..

[flutego12]

A D reamer is called this because of its profile shape, it's not a size.

I make my own reamers but they are 6 flute reamers, they are more complicated to make, but they pretty well last forever, most repairers will make a D reamer with the same rod they will eventually turn into a hinge rod

A rawhide hammer is handy, but not applicable for straightening keys and rods.

[JButky]

To unbend is a skill, pretty much any key can be straightened via manipulation with your hands, it takes practice, this applies to solid tubes or hinge tubes.

A reamer is like a drill, how ever it is for finer tolerances, a good repairer can make there own reamers as required, a D reamer is typical in this application, commercial reamers are available, these can be made as well, but require more sophisticated tooling like tool and cutter grinders.

Thanks, Steve. I should look into reamers on JLS, I should get size D? Waht about rawhide mallet, I chose the smallest is that alright? Haven't pressed the button yet. I have alot of tools in the garage and some with the nephews, just needs setting up. Will get around to it one day.

I bought the metal smith book, but didn't find it immediately helpful. For example burnishing or rolling don't get any more detail on technique apart from their definition.

Ditto to what Steve said.

Here's a picture of a simple D reamer style for keywork. The right size steel drill rod stock is hardened and then ground. This is a cross face D style..
The reamer is made from the same size drill rod stock as the steel. Measure the existing steel with a micrometer. I generally use oil hardening stock steel

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbutky/set ... 860577546/

[flutego12]

To unbend is a skill, pretty much any key can be straightened via manipulation with your hands, it takes practice, this applies to solid tubes or hinge tubes.

A reamer is like a drill, how ever it is for finer tolerances, a good repairer can make there own reamers as required, a D reamer is typical in this application, commercial reamers are available, these can be made as well, but require more sophisticated tooling like tool and cutter grinders.

Thanks, Steve. I should look into reamers on JLS, I should get size D? Waht about rawhide mallet, I chose the smallest is that alright? Haven't pressed the button yet. I have alot of tools in the garage and some with the nephews, just needs setting up. Will get around to it one day.

I bought the metal smith book, but didn't find it immediately helpful. For example burnishing or rolling don't get any more detail on technique apart from their definition.

Ditto to what Steve said.

Here's a picture of a simple D reamer style for keywork. The right size steel drill rod stock is hardened and then ground. This is a cross face D style..
The reamer is made from the same size drill rod stock as the steel. Measure the existing steel with a micrometer. I generally use oil hardening stock steel

Thanks Joe. This is technician uni stuff, I'm still in kindy learning my ABCs. Will do some catchup thinking but being thrown into deeper waters is good.

I wonder if someone would be so good to tell me WHY my F# has fallen silent when after initial adjustments were done to the middle joint, all keys were sounding perfectly. I've done comparisons, suspect a leak although no visual indications of one. Mechanically working identically to another optimally functioning flute. Ahh am baffled indeed.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbutky/set ... 860577546/

[pied_piper]

I wonder if someone would be so good to tell me WHY my F# has fallen silent when after initial adjustments were done to the middle joint, all keys were sounding perfectly. I've done comparisons, suspect a leak although no visual indications of one. Mechanically working identically to another optimally functioning flute. Ahh am baffled indeed.[/color]

We'd be glad to try and help you figure this out, but you're going to have to give us more to go on than simply saying the F# has "fallen silent". Some questions to help us help you:

When fingering F# does it make any sound at all?
Is it much softer or stuffy sounding, not quite an identifiable note?
When fingering F#, do you get some other pitch?
Do all the notes above and below F# play OK?
Try playing an F# using RH2 instead of RH3. Does F# play?

[flutego12]

I wonder if someone would be so good to tell me WHY my F# has fallen silent when after initial adjustments were done to the middle joint, all keys were sounding perfectly. I've done comparisons, suspect a leak although no visual indications of one. Mechanically working identically to another optimally functioning flute. Ahh am baffled indeed.[/color]

We'd be glad to try and help you figure this out, but you're going to have to give us more to go on than simply saying the F# has "fallen silent". Some questions to help us help you:

At last! ...hi Bob
When fingering F# does it make any sound at all? at first, just air, just now, 1/8th of the tone came out no matter how hard I press the key (assuming it's a seal problem... nada
Is it much softer or stuffy sounding, not quite an identifiable note? at first NO TONE at all, now, I can make out of the hiss if just barely, a whiff of the tone...
When fingering F#, do you get some other pitch? between an F and an F#... pretty sure F#ish
Do all the notes above and below F# play OK? EVERYTHING plays OK EXCEPT that one! and just to let you know, before CO and after the A, all keys in RH mechanism played brrrrilliantly. AFTER disassembly of the middle joint for a proper C.O., status quo all keys except F# note
Try playing an F# using RH2 instead of RH3. Does F# play? ANS see below

AHhh, no. I was doing that for a Jef Kearn's song which I had learnt through hearing, but nope, silent as well.

I've checked the related keys for leaks (visual only) ...none.
Ditto F# did nt appear to have any but I suspect the reassembly must have shifted the pad seating?

the visual test is deceptive indeed. I finally cut strips of cigarette paper and tried the tape test and true enough HALF (southern hemisphere) of the pad is LEAKING. I'm going to try shimming. YAY!!! Except orders have not arrived. bugger. Better not get ahead of myself here. Appreciate some heads up on this one

[pied_piper]

OK. You may have a small leak there but I'll bet you have a regulation problem with the F# key as well. If the notes below F# play OK, then it's likely that the F# key is not closing completely when you press RH2 or RH3.

[flutego12]

My apologies, as you've probably already guessed, I've got my "key references" wrong; as in key does not equal note! Take two.
My problem is in PLAYING the F# NOTE.

HOW TO ADJUST F KEY SO IT CLOSES ALL THE WAY AND SEAL PROPERLY
============================================

PRESSING the Ekey (R2) OR the Dkey(R3) TO PLAY THE F# NOTE yields all air & no tone for the former; and wispy with a poor hint of tone for the latter.

I think I've found the culprit. IT'S THE POOR SEAL IN THE F KEY! My goodness the hairline gap is invisible to me until I slide a sliver of cigarette paper across and it slides right through unhindered!

I'm not sure what the right approach is to ensure the seal. There isn't a cork/felt pad arm on the other side for me to cheat and elevate, so that the same travel seals the key (just kidding)

Don't think there is a dedicated adjustment screw for me to adjust the timing ... or is there?

I'm not keen to manually adjust the keys eg cutting arms etc etc

Any thoughts?

[flutego12]

OK. You may have a small leak there but I'll bet you have a regulation problem with the F# key as well. If the notes below F# play OK, then it's likely that the F# key is not closing completely when you press RH2 or RH3.

You are right - have you seen my revised note - I'd been wrongly referencing my keys.
I could not play the F# NOTE, whether pressing down Dkey (R3) or Ekey (R2)
Found the reason to be that the F-KEY IS NOT SEALING due to an even gap - instead of a padding issue, i have a feeling if I could get the key to travel the greater distance, it will seal.
Is there an Adjustment Screw to "regulate" this?" Not sure which one, if there is one.

Your diagnosis above applies, just not sure how to fix.

When playing F# using either method, the F key has a thin (.25-0.3mm) gap remaining under it.

I have to the best of my ability regulated the timing for the following key pairings:
A & Bflat
F & F#
D & E
HOWEVER when F# is played, the gap remains under Fkey.

What is the correct method for this? I have managed to "reseat" the pad. If this is the proper method, great, if not, just a temporary measure until then. This lemon has widened my technical horizons somewhat...

[flutego12]

My sincere thanks, to Bob, Steve & Mr Joe Butky THANK YOU.

Not confident with the mechanical manipulations yet. Still haven't received Medic supplies nor placed JLS order. Really should do that now.

[flutego12]

Working around the problem. My little lemon has one (actually two, no three) remaining issue centered around the foot-joint.

1) There is a slight internal injury in the footjoint - there being a slight bend somewhere on the screw hinge rod or rod hinge key (sorry if term is wrong)
This is only apparent when a COA is being performed and technician is trying to remove the screw hinge rod which seizes at some pt.

2) To the player however: The only issue in playability only shows up when one presses C & C# rollers simultaneously to play Cnote and then proceed to play C#note by sliding-off the C-roller to the C#-roller alone. AT THIS PT the symptom shows up: The C-roller AND C-key remain depressed and does not return.

However, if the player simultaneously lift RHpinky off both C & C#roller together, C key returns normally.
Problem crops up only when sliding from Croller to C#roller, in which case Ckey remains depressed.

What is the deal here?

3) Lastly, the bottom tenon of the flute body connecting to the footjoint is a little looser than I like - would like to tighten it somewhat - which means I need to enlarge the tenon slightly. Not sure how done.

[mirwa]

I really don't want to sound harsh, as I like to help others out. But I do believe you are currently way out of your depth, you really should let this one be handled by some one that knows what they are doing

When learning to repair flutes, you start with simple strip downs of a working instrument and reassembly ensuring it plays again, from there you take a working flute and change a pad, just one, when you can make it play again properly then you do the same again but with a couple of pads.

Then you start repairs, like dent work, body straightening, tenon resizing, post alignments, rod straightening, key making, manufacture of rods, fitment of new springs, tone hole levelling, manufacture of keys, straightening of keys, reaming of hinge tubes, counter boring of posts, rethreading of posts, plating of keys and so forth.

And then revisiting fitting pads, there's fitting a pad and fitting a pad, I like probably a lot of others see instruments that have been padded by repairers which IMO are a joke of a job, and they call themselves repairers. It's about touch and analysing the instrument.

As I said, don't want to sound harsh but your not IMO ready yet for repairs, you have to crawl before you can run

Send this instrument to a repairer

Steve

http://www.mirwa.com.au

[flutego12]

I really don't want to sound harsh, as I like to help others out. But I do believe you are currently way out of your depth, you really should let this one be handled by some one that knows what they are doing hi Steve, I know what I am capable of and I know what I am not. Currently I am working out what needs to be done. It's my way of learning. This isn't a career path for me, just a hobby. I'm not in the business of fixing lemons for resale. Lemons are case studies for mucking around with and learning on. Having said that this is my first real lemon. The rest have been easy low hanging fruit.

When learning to repair flutes, you start with simple strip downs of a working instrument and reassembly ensuring it plays again, from there you take a working flute and change a pad, just one, when you can make it play again properly then you do the same again but with a couple of pads. I am not even repadding yet, just reseating the incumbent. Adjusting heights which has been successfully done.

Then you start repairs, like dent work, body straightening, tenon resizing, post alignments, rod straightening, key making, manufacture of rods, fitment of new springs, tone hole levelling, manufacture of keys, straightening of keys, reaming of hinge tubes, counter boring of posts, rethreading of posts, plating of keys and so forth.Agree, I've been helpfully offered the theory. Doesn't mean I'm doing the pracs yet. Well at least not till the tools arrive. Even then I know my limits and will not attempt that which I'm not comfortable. Dents and straightening?... you bet I'm going for it! Tenon resizing too. Rod straightening I'm not sure, don't like power tools, ditto the rest. I'd rather purchase the spare parts. That will be second or third year stuff. I am not taking this lightly. There is a lot of skill involved and I highly respect that. I know you mean well though it is beginning to sound a little condescending.

And then revisiting fitting pads, there's fitting a pad and fitting a pad, I like probably a lot of others see instruments that have been padded by repairers which IMO are a joke of a job, and they call themselves repairers. It's about touch and analysing the instrument. With a lot of help from this forum and elsewhere, I believe I'm well on my way to a good start. The hypothesizing and theorizing is fun though the solution is sometimes easy sometimes beyond my reach, at this stage of the curve. To me, it's inexcusable for a working technician to be bad, not necessarily the hobbyist working on his or her own flute. As a beginner/learner, I expect to be no where near as proficient as any of you - so I will be kind to myself. So far haven't attempted a lot, but it hasn't been bad...no doubt there was a lot of hand holding through the journey. And I really really appreciate that. This flute thing has been such a therapy for me. So i hope you understand.

As I said, don't want to sound harsh but your not IMO ready yet for repairs, you have to crawl before you can run

Send this instrument to a repairer

I had intended to leave the footjoint to the pros (don't currently have the tools or skills for any manual manipulations), pads however have been reseated and playing nicely now. There's just a very long queue to the city shop, waiting list till Sept. I'm mentally sorting out solutions and that is teaching me heaps already. And I really couldn't have done it without the generosity of forum members. If Yamaha has stock of the part, I think I've got it solved. The rod isn't bent, the Ckey part is. And I don't know how nor have the strength to twist it back.

Steve

http://www.mirwa.com.au

[mirwa]

Fair enough. Best wishes

You don't reseat pads, you shim or bend the keys so that they seal around the perimeter.

[flutego12]

Fair enough. Best wishes

You don't reseat pads, you shim or bend the keys so that they seal around the perimeter.

Repair admin at S&W used the term... so I simply parroted. I guess it's a case of GIGO

[JButky]

I am not even repadding yet, just reseating the incumbent. Adjusting heights which has been successfully done.

You cannot have successfully established proper key heights if there are leaks and the flute is not regulated properly. The procedure is to adjust the pads first, regulate second, THEN establish the key height (venting height) and remove lost motion. Key height is NEVER adjusted using the regulation (adjustment) screws!

Once the leaks are removed completely, Then each of the RH regulations can be performed. All the finger keys F/E/D individually adjust the F# key. The adjustment screws are for that purpose. FINALLY key height is adjusted. Established Key height on flute is performed where ever a key tail hits the body tube. The first one to do is the F key after the whole flute is regulated. Set that one and the rest are pretty much removing lost motion (at the key tails) for the A, E, D and Thumb keys. Offset G, G# and the vent are independent.

It would also help us greatly to use standard terminology. "Timing does" not mean anything as far as flute repair is concerned. There is pad leveling, pad seating, regulation, removing lost motion. Parts referred to hinge rod, hinge tube, clutch, back connector, etc., etc...

It's much more difficult effectively when terminology is not consistent.