May I pose the first question

[flutego12]

Key mechanisms - how does one tighten keys that are slightly loose at where the key arm meets the hinge tube? The "give" is just a fraction of a millimeter but nevertheless there. This is my first loose key on a 13yo Yamaha flute.

Does the fix involve a bench block and mallet? OR set of tightening smooth jawed pliers

[pied_piper]

The most common technique is to use swedging pliers. If you have access to a lathe, appropriately sized collets can also be used. Swedging pliers are more economical for a small shop. There are many different types for use in varying situations. Ones with wider jaws are useful for longer hinge tubes. Very narrow jaws are useful when a key is very close to the end of the hinge tube and near a post. You also must select an appropriate size "hole" that is close to the diameter of the hinge tube. The gripping area is usually chrome plated and polished very smooth to avoid marring the hinge tube.

MusicMedic sells a very nice one with multiple holes for different size hinge tubes.
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/produ ... pl550.html

JL Smith sells individually sized pliers.
http://www.jlsmithco.com/s.nl/sc.13/cat ... h=Swedging

Here are my swedging pliers. I bought the larger one over 30 years ago from Eric Brand, but they are no longer in business. The smaller one is from Ferrees.

Swedging Pliers Top (Smaller).JPG (19.78 KiB) Viewed 14358 times

This is a view of the sides showing the thinner profile of the Ferrees swedging pliers

Swedging Pliers Side (Smaller).JPG (15.11 KiB) Viewed 14358 times

[fluteguy18]

MusicMedic sells a very nice one with multiple holes for different size hinge tubes.
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/produ ... pl550.html

That's one of the ones that I have. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I can't wait to do so.

[flutego12]

The most common technique is to use swedging pliers. If you have access to a lathe, appropriately sized collets can also be used. Swedging pliers are more economical for a small shop. There are many different types for use in varying situations. Ones with wider jaws are useful for longer hinge tubes. Very narrow jaws are useful when a key is very close to the end of the hinge tube and near a post. You also must select an appropriate size "hole" that is close to the diameter of the hinge tube. The gripping area is usually chrome plated and polished very smooth to avoid marring the hinge tube.

MusicMedic sells a very nice one with multiple holes for different size hinge tubes.
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/produ ... pl550.html

JL Smith sells individually sized pliers.
http://www.jlsmithco.com/s.nl/sc.13/cat ... h=Swedging

Here are my swedging pliers. I bought the larger one over 30 years ago from Eric Brand, but they are no longer in business. The smaller one is from Ferrees.

Swedging Pliers Top (Smaller).JPG

This is a view of the sides showing the thinner profile of the Ferrees swedging pliers

Swedging Pliers Side (Smaller).JPG

Those EBs are great quality tools! Don't make them like that anymore. I think I might just take your suggestion and get the music medic one - I think they are expensive but, I hope it fits everything for flute and clarinet.
How does one register with Ferrees Tools? He hasn't replied my emails.

[flutego12]

MusicMedic sells a very nice one with multiple holes for different size hinge tubes.
http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/produ ... pl550.html

That's one of the ones that I have. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I can't wait to do so.

Cool bannanas!

[pied_piper]

How does one register with Ferrees Tools? He hasn't replied my emails.

AFAIK, there's really no registration as such. Just email ferreestools@aol.com and explain that you'd like to place an order. If they didn't respond within a few days, try again.

Since you are a new customer, they should assign you an account number and then you can place a credit card number on file for payment. I know that phoning the U.S. from down under can be expensive, but you may want to consider doing that to give them your credit card number. Sending your CC info via email is not secure and better safe than sorry...

[flutego12]

How does one register with Ferrees Tools? He hasn't replied my emails.

AFAIK, there's really no registration as such. Just email ferreestools@aol.com and explain that you'd like to place an order. If they didn't respond within a few days, try again.

Since you are a new customer, they should assign you an account number and then you can place a credit card number on file for payment. I know that phoning the U.S. from down under can be expensive, but you may want to consider doing that to give them your credit card number. Sending your CC info via email is not secure and better safe than sorry...

Bob, I really can't thank you enough for ALL the help you've been to me. I will certainly do that. In what order would you place Ferree, Allied, JLS, MM in sourcing ? I guess that's a sensitive Q and not fair for public comment.

I'll take a look at ferree's now that there 's hope.

[pied_piper]

In what order would you place Ferree, Allied, JLS, MM in sourcing ? I guess that's a sensitive Q and not fair for public comment.

Don't forget about Votaw tools... They are also a good source.

I don't know that I prefer one over the other. I've ordered from all of those and others. They each stock some of the same tools and supplies and they each have some unique offerings. For me, it boils down to what I am looking for and which of them have it. Then I look at the prices and perceived quality and sometimes recommendations from other techs. Basically, I just put on my intuitive shopping hat and then make my selection. Sometimes, my choice of vendor is influenced by which one has the MOST of the items I want at a particular time. I do that so that I can batch items together to save on shipping and handling or minimum order policies. Under those circumstances, I might pay a little more for one item, but save overall on the shipping or save on not paying a fee for less than a vendor's minimum order.

Feel free to PM me if you want any recommendations on a specific item.

[fluteguy18]

Travers Tool Co. was great to work with when I placed an order recently. They're more geared toward metal machining, but the prices seem okay and the quality is fairly good.

[mirwa]

I do not personally like swedging pliers. I feel they leave very distinctive marks on key work.

Don't get me wrong there are times when they have to be used, but they are my least preferred tool.

I do like collet swedging tools, these apply a more uniform pressure to the tubing and leave little to no evidence of having been used, however they cost a lot more.

Fitting / repairing a loose key involves a lot more work than just swedging a tube, it also involves dressing the tube ends squarely, facing the contact points of the key posts, reaming oversize lose posts and hinge tubes and so on

You can also purchase small Teflon washers to minimise key play from company's such as j l smith

[flutego12]

deleted.

[flutego12]

@piedpiper I'll definitely be PMing soon. Thanks. Gosh your american goods are starting to get expensive again. For a while, we DU never had it so good with the forex discounting.
@fluteguy18 hiya! Will do, thanks for the heads up. I've not heard of them till now. Will look them up
@mirwa precision tools! I've got some teflon - not in the shape of washers but squares. Not sure where you were going to suggest putting them to eliminate key play - I'll have to figure that out unless you tell me first.

meanwhile on another post, I had sos'd for help to fix some play in the keys - turns out it was largely due to the hinge tubes which were "a fraction short" between the posts - for both the L & RH mechs, causing just the minutest lateral play - a teenybit clacky as a result ... was hoping to get a reply but have in the meantime decided the solution could possibly be to bend the posts (straighten) slightly to eliminate the gap. I had two tools -

1) MM's post alignment tool - was rubbing my hands with glee to finally find a chance to use it but, alas, to my dismay, the spring was in the way - so back it went into the plastic casing again =(
Next flashed and I fished out my
2) small rawhide tapper - perhaps I could tap it a fraction - and... success!... i'm most pleased to announce it works like a charm

the last I checked the flute still plays beautifully

Now I should brace for comments...
esp the gusterly that blows in from the west.

[mirwa]

No gusterlys from this way.

All I can do is advise how something should be done IMO. Any deviation from that process is a persons choice, but you cannot expect mechanical perfection by short cutting.

I was un-aware also that repair questions were appearing in the website related section of the forum

Side play in a key is either from the hinge tube being too large for the rod or the tube ends worn. There are also other reasons but these are due to sustaining of damage and or serious neglect. From the souind sof y6our reply the posts had sustained some damage and had splayed apart.

The teflon washers I was referring too are washers which you slip over the hinge rod to fill the missing space between the tube end and the post.

Thoughts also have to be given to what is about to happen before you incorporate any repair process,

When you swedge you are deforming / forming the hinge tube around a rod, by applying pressure to the tube you are in fact thinning it down, by thinning it down at a location it also in turn stretches the metal, if the metal is being stretched then it occupies a larger space and in turn can remove play from between the posts.

However, why was it worn, has the ends of the tubing been ground away, if they have then you need to dress and face the tubing so it is square edged again, same applies to the posts, they need to be faced and set squarely

There are lots of things that can go wrong, but if your goal is to repair then this is your opportunity at your own pace to get it right.

To get it right I would site unseen,

- swedge the tubing with a collet swedger
- Ream the tubing to the size of the rod it sits on
- Face the ends of the tube so they are square
- Ensure the posts are aligned to each other
- Face the posts square to each other
- Apply oil and fit the key

[pied_piper]

I've been busy so trying to catch up here.
These posts really do not belong in the Website section. Hopefully, once the Repair Forum is fully operational, these posts can be moved there. We moderators just have to figure out how to make that happen.

@flutego12: I agree with much of Steve's comments about swedging pliers. They can mar the hinge tube, so I tend to reserve those for use on low end and older flutes where it's not quite so critical. For higher end flutes, the collets are less marring. Ditto on his comments about squaring/facing the ends of the hinge tube and facing the posts so that everything is in perfect alignment and square to its mating surface.

Regarding gaps or play between the hinge tube and posts, another thing to watch for is a misaligned post. That can also create a gap or cause binding. If the post is tipped away from the end of the hinge tube, there will be a gap whereas conversely, if the post is tipped toward the hinge tube it can bind. Sometimes there can be a combination of all those conditions within a single key stack. The important thing here is to properly analyze precisely what the problem(s) are BEFORE you start making any corrections. If you don't do that, you may make the problem(s) worse.

Oh, and one more thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread: When using a swedging tool or collets, the hinge rod should be inserted into the hinge tube. Otherwise, you may collapse, over compress, or oval the unsupported hinge tube.

[flutego12]

Good to hear from you.
Side play in a key is either from the hinge tube being too large for the rod or the tube ends worn. There are also other reasons but these are due to sustaining of damage and or serious neglect. From the souind sof y6our reply the posts had sustained some damage and had splayed apart.Yes indeed. Slightly both ends.

The teflon washers I was referring too are washers which you slip over the hinge rod to fill the missing space between the tube end and the post.I should investigate these. Sound like what I need if I hadn't tapped the posts back in.

Thoughts also have to be given to what is about to happen before you incorporate any repair process,

When you swedge you are deforming / forming the hinge tube around a rod, by applying pressure to the tube you are in fact thinning it down, by thinning it down at a location it also in turn stretches the metal, if the metal is being stretched then it occupies a larger space and in turn can remove play from between the posts.I best leave this alone.

However, why was it worn, has the ends of the tubing been ground away, if they have then you need to dress and face the tubing so it is square edged again, same applies to the posts, they need to be faced and set squarelyI suspect, this might be the case as well. how does one dress and face a tube to square edge it again? manual filing or grinding?

There are lots of things that can go wrong, but if your goal is to repair then this is your opportunity at your own pace to get it right. yes for the brave

To get it right I would site unseen,

- swedge the tubing with a collet swedger
- Ream the tubing to the size of the rod it sits on
- Face the ends of the tube so they are square for future ref, how?
- Ensure the posts are aligned to each other how?
- Face the posts square to each other how?
- Apply oil and fit the key

Thank you Steve, this is tremendous help indeed, will not order the swedging plier then. I need to process the Metalworks Book from JLS first. Too brief in parts. Is there a book on flute (delicate) dent work?